Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

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Marshal Rob
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Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

Hi All,
I refer to page 61 top of page - "Brigades may not deploy with a mixture of both line and column...." - and following.
The qualifier in the brackets provides exceptions to "A brigade must be either all in column or all in line".
I am interested in your thoughts of what "moving up or repositioning means"
Also, does it mean initial deployment on table, or the deployment of the brigade at any time during the game?

example - My 1806 Prussian brigade infantry sets up with the front line regiment in 2 battalions in line. Behind is another 2 Bn. regiment in column and the Grenadier Bn. further back in column. I could argue that the columns are "moving up" .....is this the intent of the bracketed qualifier?

Cheers
Marshal Rob
Marshal Rob
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

Hi All and Dave,
No answer or comment to this one yet (still GDA1). It came up in our game Friday night. Is there any change or clarity in GDA2?
Cheers
Marshal Rob
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DCRBrown
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by DCRBrown »

MR,

Try this:

• Brigade units repositioning during the game may be in a different formation as long as they use their full move each turn to do so until the manoeuvre is complete, otherwise they must adopt the brigade formation.

DB
el cid
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by el cid »

http://www.preussenweb.de/taktik2.htm

Schon im Jahre 1796 hatten sich zwei verschiedene Formen voll ausgebildet. Einmal die methodische mit einer vorgeschobenen Tirailleurlinie und dahinter zwei Treffen von Bataillonskolonnen, von denen das erste schnell zur Linie übergehen konnte. Im anderen Fall war das erste in Tirailleurschwärme aufgelöst, und das zweite Treffen bildete wenige große Kolonnen aus hintereinanderstehenden Bataillonen, die sich bei Bedarf nebeneinander aufstellten. Diese Form zog man vor, wenn es im Gelände nur wenige gangbare Straßen gab.

This states that the "brigade formation" can be a mix of line in the "first line" of a brigade formation and column in the "second line" of a brigade for a Prussian brigade of 1797 to 1806.
Repositioning came from the demand of different solutions relating to actions of the enemy.
For me assumption / demand of a standardized Prussian brigade formation (in line) is only misinterpretation.
Marshal Rob
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

Thank you El Cid - a wonderful link that I now have to translate. The more I study the 1806 battles, the less I belive in the old tropes of how the Prussians of 1806 fought. They had the potential to be more flexible and effective with their organisation, doctrine and training, but their command decisions were the source of failure not the tactical systems they had developed. The equally big issue was that they had not fought a campaign for a long time. The French had it all worked out in the camp at Boulogne and had the experience of 1805 to bed down their training based on earlier more recent campaigns.
Rob
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DCRBrown
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by DCRBrown »

E C,

If I've read this extract correctly - it refers to the first line as the skirmish line? (tirailleur line)

The second line being in columns ready to deploy if necessary.

Is this any different to what we have now?

DB
Marshal Rob
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

I think it is more like tirailleur line, then the first line of formed troops followed by a second line of formed troops with Cavalry brigade further back. The interesteing German word here is Treffen (noun) not treffen (a verb) - treffen is to meet - we will "treffen" at the pub. All the translaters I use read Treffen as treffen.....which in modern language is good as long as the pub has good beer. Treffen is used to refer to lines or "waves" in formations where Batallions are organised in several lines. It doesn't refer to batallion formation. So it seems that in this document El Cid has found it is possible to have the skirmish line followed by several Treffen of formed troops adopting whatever battalion formation is ordered by command/required.
At Hassenhausen (Auerstadt) the 3 Prussian divisions engaged in the tactical fight in 2 Treffen of battalions in line. Prior to that Schmettau's Division approached Hassenhausen in columns along the road (there was a cavalry and H.A. advance guard) Once they realised the fight was on the Division deployed to the left of the road in 2 Treffen of Battalion lines. I think each regiment was one up one back. The Grenadiers adopted both formations as needed and even sent out skirmishers. The French fought in Lines or squares as required. Morand sent the 13th Legere to retake Hassenhaussen in attack columns. The Prussians never needed square on this day (that I have read of yet)

Doctrine did not require the Prussian brigades and divisions to all be in the same formation. Their concept of the decision part of the fight was to be in line to defeat the enemy with musketry. The grenadiers were there for the bayonet. Getting to that position may have required battalion column movement. After the reforms a reinforcable skirmish line was emphasised more.
But I might be wrong,
Marshal Rob
Marshal Rob
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

In a wargame rules context the you could say that 1806 Prussians (and their ilk) MUST deploy their front formed battalions in line when within a certain distance of the enemy. Second Treffen battalions not obliged to do so. Square should also be allowed for front line, so a mixed front line of squares and line is conceivable. Maybe, when a battalion moves up to the front line it then deploys, unless it is a Grenadier battalion intended to go into close assault. This should restrict the player to the period/history.
Marshal Rob
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DCRBrown
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by DCRBrown »

MR,

All excellent points.

I've already toyed with the idea that the 2nd/3rd Treffen need not be in the same formation as the first, and that may be a way of addressing this, but may not necessarily solve the issue.

We do however have to consider that many early Allied brigades were ad hoc formations, and hence unfamiliar with each other, unfamiliar with the commanders and unpractised at brigade formations.

It's this unfamiliarity that is the rules driver behind these early Allied armies being less flexible than the French, etc, rather than the inherent battalions being less able, which I think we'd all agree they were not.

It's a classic case of designing a "catch-all" and easy to implement rule to cover the above situations, which are unfortunately not easy nor one size fits all!

Hence the current rule that insists upon a common brigade formation does cover this. But I'm more than happy to see exceptions such as Skirmishers, squares and perhaps even Grenadiers?

DB
Marshal Rob
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Re: Linear Doctrine Armies e.g. 1806 Prussians

Post by Marshal Rob »

I am obsessed with Auerstadt - reality was an amazing result for Davout and the IIICorps. This is easy to design into a game, just keep bumping up the quality of just about everything. The Prussians are the difficulty. They had golden opportunities to destroy or drive Davout back over the river - and should have!! MY challenge is to set up the game to have fun for both sides, but still reflect the hard realities.

By the way David - the Prussian division and brigade organisation was already established and standard before the 1806 campaign. Whatever larger formation training they did before the campaign I don't know about, so the "getting to know you" aspect is an open issue. Interestingly the 1806 Division closely resembles the 1815 Brigades.

I have recently started learning that the Prussian society was a mixture of different "cultures" and the army reflected this. For example, the night before the battle it was the "Polish" infantry that pillaged and looted the town of Auerstadt because the commissariat had failed to supply them, which gets back to one of the reasons why the Prussians performed badly on the day - they had reversed their operational order of march to get to Auerstadt and any march route organisation went to hell in a handbag. Blücher was the advamce guard commander who was suddenly in the rear and had to march until 2 in the morning to get back to near the front, leaving his cavalr behind him to struggle through the mess on the roads. This is why the light cav were not there in the morning and Kuirassiers and Dragoons were taken from the combat divisions to find out what was happening towards the Hassenhausen high ground - in the fog.
Gotta go - I can rave on forever about this
Marshal Rob
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