Basic Firing Questions

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swammeyjoe
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Basic Firing Questions

Post by swammeyjoe » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:38 pm

Hello,

My group has just started trying out Chain of Command, we're normally more of a Modern (Force on Force) group, so some of the more exact skirmish stuff needs some clarity. We've played a couple small (less than platoon) games while we work on forces and terrain.

Questions
1) The only figures that count for firepower when firing are those that have LoS/Range to at least 1 figure in the target team? What if they only have LoS/Range to a model within 4" of the Target Team (aka one that would normally have hits spread on it anyway)?

2) The only* figures that can be killed are those that are in LoS/Range to at least 1 firing model? The two exceptions being:

2a) that Leaders/FOs can be killed as long as their within 4" (based on die roll)

2b) That crew served weapons will remain operational until all the men in the team are killed? What if the crew served weapon is the only valid target figure? Do we still remove a rifleman from the back and say someone picked up the weapon? That's what the rules seem to imply.

3) Putting the two points above together, you could have 6 friendlies who can only see 1 target and then 1 friendly who can see 6 targets and assuming all are in the same team (Soviet/Pole squads, maybe) you would roll firepower for 7 figures and could kill all 7? I actually like that.

4) The game seems rather "freeform" about when to do things as Teams and when to do things as Sections. The example of a leader dicing to see if they die combines all the casualties from both teams of a section, even though firing is supposedly carried out on individual teams.

5) To be clear, on any command die (1, 2 or a CI) you can split fire of a team down to the individual figure level, if you want to? You can aim at any team you have LoS to? Nice flexibility that gives for playing really small squad vs squad games.

Thanks!

siggian
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by siggian » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:21 pm

Here's my best go:

1) You can only shoot at what you see. So I would only count units that are within 4" of the visible figures in the target team for sharing hits.

2a) Yes, based on the assumption that the leader is taking a peek from time to time. It stops the gamey tactic of stashing the leader out of sight.

2b) Yes, another team member picks up the gun. Effectively, this means that you don't remove the gunner figure until the rest of the team is wiped out.

3) I would shoot them separately because the 6 can only kill one figure. Any excess kills by them would be ignored (although I would still count them for the check on the JL being hit). All shock is still applied. The 1 could shoot at a different figure.

4) The JL is assumed to be moving back and forth between the teams and so could be hit anywhere. Think of his figure representing the centre of where he could be rather than his actual physical location.

5) On a 1, the activated team can do one action. They could shoot at one target unit. On a 2, a two team section can do one action. If the section shoots, everyone in the section shoots at the same target. Rich allows (as I do) figures who cannot see the target to move 1D6 to a position where they can shoot and do so at half-strength. On a 3, the JL activates. He can do two things such activating each team in a two team section. Both teams have an independent action and can do different things. But within each team, the figures must do the same thing.

Hope this helps.

Archdukek
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by Archdukek » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:42 pm

Just to add a comment to siggian's answers, the rules do allow a Unit (Team or Section) to split their fire against multiple targets (section 8.3) So while I agree that if activated on a 1 or 2 a Team or Section should all fire at the same target team if they can, if any figures cannot see that target I would allow them to fire at other enemy figures they can see without them having to move.
However, you can't use a Command dice to split the fire down to individual figure level. The basic premise of the rules is that Teams fire upon Teams, not individuals on individuals.

John

swammeyjoe
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by swammeyjoe » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm

Archdukek wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:42 pm
Just to add a comment to siggian's answers, the rules do allow a Unit (Team or Section) to split their fire against multiple targets (section 8.3) So while I agree that if activated on a 1 or 2 a Team or Section should all fire at the same target team if they can, if any figures cannot see that target I would allow them to fire at other enemy figures they can see without them having to move.
However, you can't use a Command dice to split the fire down to individual figure level. The basic premise of the rules is that Teams fire upon Teams, not individuals on individuals.

John
Why wouldn't you allow splitting fire on a 1 or a 2 unless there were figures that couldn't see? And why not with a CI? The rules seem actually really clear than when a "fire" action is being taken by a team, they can split their firepower dice amongst any number of target teams, not individual figures. It's not one figure firing at one figure but it's also not one team firing at (only) one team.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by Truscott Trotter » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:45 pm

I think you can split fire when activated on CI same as a 1 or 2 but after playing you may well discover that concentration of fire is the key not dispersion.
I have never split fire from a team in 6 years of playing as unlike BA its just not effective.

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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by swammeyjoe » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:23 pm

siggian wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:21 pm
3) I would shoot them separately because the 6 can only kill one figure. Any excess kills by them would be ignored (although I would still count them for the check on the JL being hit). All shock is still applied. The 1 could shoot at a different figure.
I guess my question is where is that in the rules?

Firing is conducted team to team, taking LoS into account, right? But if now you have to split the fire rolls within a single team firing at one other team based off who can see who, and cap the number of kills from certain members of the team, then you're not really doing it "team to team" anymore?

What about when there's 2 figures who can see 3 enemies and 1 who can see 2 and so on. You end up having to ask "how many Kill results can one figure generate in a single attack?" And if the answer is "equal to their firepower dice" then you could end up needing to roll a separate die for each member of a team should there be a weird terrain situation.

I realize I'm harping on an edge case but "fire is team to team, only figures that can see the target team can fire and only target figures that are in LoS can be eliminated" is clear, but when you start getting more detailed things get really complex.

swammeyjoe
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by swammeyjoe » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:25 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:45 pm
I think you can split fire when activated on CI same as a 1 or 2 but after playing you may well discover that concentration of fire is the key not dispersion.
I have never split fire from a team in 6 years of playing as unlike BA its just not effective.
Oh I'm sure it is, I'm just trying to better sort out the rules in my head. I have no BA experience, seeing the random force construction turned me off. I'm slightly obsessed with using realistic forces and scales We've mostly played FoF and a hacked up version of Mars Attacks for pulpier games.

Archdukek
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by Archdukek » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:11 am

swammeyjoe wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm
Why wouldn't you allow splitting fire on a 1 or a 2 unless there were figures that couldn't see? And why not with a CI? The rules seem actually really clear than when a "fire" action is being taken by a team, they can split their firepower dice amongst any number of target teams, not individual figures. It's not one figure firing at one figure but it's also not one team firing at (only) one team.
Because Chain of Command is not a squad v squad game were you are activating individual figures. Instead the command and control operates at the Team and Section level and as the rules on the use of Command dice to activate Teams or Sections explicitly say on page 17:
"All members of the Section or Team must do the same thing when activated together."

If activated on a Command Dice of 1 or 2 to fire the Team or Section must engage the same target. If line of sight to the enemy team is blocked for some individuals then they don't fire if you follow the example on page 17. However, I'm slightly more generous and would allow the blocked figures to fire on other enemy visible to them. However, I wouldn't allow individual soldiers to spread their fire across individuals in multiple enemy teams, the player doesn't have that degree of fine control. Nor is it effective tactics as TT has pointed out.

John

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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by Seret » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:31 am

swammeyjoe wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:23 pm
I realize I'm harping on an edge case but "fire is team to team, only figures that can see the target team can fire and only target figures that are in LoS can be eliminated" is clear, but when you start getting more detailed things get really complex.
I've played a few games, and can honestly say we've never had any problem with this sort of thing. In 99.9% of cases you'll have one squad declaring that it's firing on another and you just tot up the firepower dice and roll away. In some cases it can be worth declaring which exact team is the target (usually when there are a lot of enemy bunched up). I wouldn't worry about figuring out what each individual man can see, it's far more normal that a whole squad can all see the same thing.

swammeyjoe
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Re: Basic Firing Questions

Post by swammeyjoe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:11 am

Archdukek wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:11 am
swammeyjoe wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm
Why wouldn't you allow splitting fire on a 1 or a 2 unless there were figures that couldn't see? And why not with a CI? The rules seem actually really clear than when a "fire" action is being taken by a team, they can split their firepower dice amongst any number of target teams, not individual figures. It's not one figure firing at one figure but it's also not one team firing at (only) one team.
Because Chain of Command is not a squad v squad game were you are activating individual figures. Instead the command and control operates at the Team and Section level and as the rules on the use of Command dice to activate Teams or Sections explicitly say on page 17:
"All members of the Section or Team must do the same thing when activated together."

If activated on a Command Dice of 1 or 2 to fire the Team or Section must engage the same target. If line of sight to the enemy team is blocked for some individuals then they don't fire if you follow the example on page 17. However, I'm slightly more generous and would allow the blocked figures to fire on other enemy visible to them. However, I wouldn't allow individual soldiers to spread their fire across individuals in multiple enemy teams, the player doesn't have that degree of fine control. Nor is it effective tactics as TT has pointed out.

John
Totally agree on both the ineffectiveness and the sketchy historical truth except in rare circumstances, but I was purely approaching it from a rules perspective. Better to know what's allowed and house rule from there.

I'd say that page 17 is referring to the options given immediately before, so you can't have half a team move 2d6 and the other half fire, for example. But within the "same action" of firing, rule 8.3 seems pretty explicit about the controlling player being able to split fire between different target teams at the individual figure level. But of course if the target teams are within 4" it's utterly meaningless, as the hits are shares.

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