Infantry and transports.

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nikjen66
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Infantry and transports.

Post by nikjen66 »

Where Infantry is transported in an AFV, let’s say some Bren Carriers but could be half tracks, where one of transports is knocked out and the infantry bail out and are not KIAd what happens to the rest of the infantry platoon?

This happened last night. We were using the British carrier platoon (it’s such a sexy unit) and the lead carrier was hit at close range by an AT gun. The section bailed and the platoon, now a mix of 1 Infantry section and two carriers, engaged the AT gun. We used the firepower of one section and the two other carriers. But, should all of the infantry have de-bussed and the carriers have skedaddled? Or were we right in using the platoon in this mixed fashion?

For the record the platoon knocked out the AT gun and then, having now fully , assaulted a BAU, and captured it. Huzzah for the plucky Carrier Platoon!!

And, a further question. As the carriers are transports but have MGs do they leave the table one they have deposited their ride and, if they are knocked out as happened in our game do they count towards the FUBAR? I included them as losses as they’re a bit different to soft skinned transport but again not sure this was right.

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DCRBrown
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by DCRBrown »

N,
Where Infantry is transported in an AFV, where one of transports is knocked out and the infantry bail out and are not KIAd what happens to the rest of the infantry platoon?
The platoon must remain within its "In Command" Distance at all times, even in this situation. Thus you remaining embussed men will need to dismount (we can allow a move to cover/safely before doing this) and then regroup with the rest of the platoon.
See 2.9 Platoon Integrity. In Command Distances. p11.
As the carriers are transports but have MGs do they leave the table one they have deposited their ride and, if they are knocked out as happened in our game do they count towards the FUBAR? I included them as losses as they’re a bit different to soft skinned transport but again not sure this was right.
See 7.6 FUBARs. Losses that do not count towards a FUBAR. Point c.
Carriers armed with an MG or AT rifle are classed as transports. (Though bear in mind the weapon is removed from the carrier when the platoon dismounts.) All transports will leave the table in the following Regroup Phase.

General Charion
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by General Charion »

Hi,

just clarification with regards to platoon integrity, in this particular example the platoon and its transports were all grouped close together, hurtling down the road and even after lead transport was totalled they were all still in command distance of the other enbussed carriers. Would the rest of the them still have to debus?

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DCRBrown
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by DCRBrown »

GC,

The remainder do not have to debus, but they do have to maintain platoon integrity.

However if the first transport has been knocked out its best to debus immediately and operate on foot rather than wait for your last transport to be knocked out.

I follow that British Army carrier advice - "When in doubt, dismount!"

DB

gbaylis1957
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by gbaylis1957 »

Bit confused about transports. I believe they can lay down fire before disembarking troops, this being counted as the guns used by the infantry they had on board (as stated in the posts above) which is I suppose the reason the troops cannot fire, however the rules state that the transport can fire before or after debussing units. This sounds a bit illogical. Am i missing something or does it not really matter?

Also the rules state tranports are removed after debussing, but then go on to talk about embussing. Does this mean you sometimes have the option of keeping them on the table?

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DCRBrown
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by DCRBrown »

GB57,

The guns being referred to are the transports main armament, e.g. the MG on an Sdkfz 250, or Bren on the Bren carrier, not the actual riflemen.

So, these weapons can be fired before the men dismount or after. If it's after this is either the crew of the vehicle firing the weapon, or its members of the section who put down covering fire before leaving after the rest of his section/platoon have already debussed.

Embusing is in the rules for context and those rare scenarios where players might have reserve transports to collect leg infantry and take them from point A to point, B, such as in a large Battlegroup game.

In all other cases see Transporting Infantry Section 9.7. p42,last para.

Hope that helps.

DB

Sincilbanks
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by Sincilbanks »

Just my 0.02p

I'm really not sure how many scenarios should have infantry in APC's going into a planned combat operation bussed up (ambush scenarios are different of course) these vehicles aren't modern IFV's. Doctrine was to dismount long before you deployed for the attack phase of any operation (even a hasty one) All those half-tracked and tracked transport is designed to keep your infantry up with the tanks outside of any engagement not really during it. (Look what happened to Grabners armoured infantry assault across the bridge at Arnhem against lightly armed paratroopers)

I guess if you are pushing a reserve up into reinforce or capitalise on an attack they might approach the jump off point embarked but only if all the approaches were out of sight / fire from the enemy, otherwise given the scale of the table and size of forces I would think it's more than reasonable that any infantry transport would have been left off map at the forming up point and the approach to the first jump off point done on foot.

But in the scale of O group, if I was a platoon commander and had been ordered to approach a known enemy position while embarked on my half tracks I'm fairly sure I'd be given my Company commander some sharply raised eyebrows and a diffident Sgt Wilson's "are you sure that's entirely wise sir?"

The standard infantry company would have been expected to deploy it's own firepower plus any assigned assets from battalion to get the job done rather than rely on additional firepower from the machine guns of any associated transport, who almost certainly would be needed to advance rapidly once the opposition had been suitably reduced.

This doesn't mean it never happened of course, just that is was very much the exception

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DCRBrown
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by DCRBrown »

S,

You are almost certainly correct!

Just two points.

First those awkward Germans did at times use their halftracks to attack directly onto the battlefield, with mixed results! (Occasionally the British carriers might be expected to do this, though I think this would have been a very rare event.)

Secondly wargamers are always keen to play the exception or the "what if", because that's half the fun of wargaming. It allows for greater command options, even if it ends in hideous casualties! :shock:

DB

Sincilbanks
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by Sincilbanks »

DCRBrown wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:34 am
S,

You are almost certainly correct!

Just two points.

First those awkward Germans did at times use their halftracks to attack directly onto the battlefield, with mixed results! (Occasionally the British carriers might be expected to do this, though I think this would have been a very rare event.)

Secondly wargamers are always keen to play the exception or the "what if", because that's half the fun of wargaming. It allows for greater command options, even if it ends in hideous casualties! :shock:

DB
D,

Absolutely, hence my qualification at the end. My point mainly being that doctrine did not advise it, even in the case of the Germans. I'm by no means saying transport shouldn't be in the rules or even be available during a company attack, just that it really was quite rare for it to be up close and personal with the enemy, especially in the case of a more "formal" attack organised via an "O group" :P

gbaylis1957
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Re: Infantry and transports.

Post by gbaylis1957 »

Understand the transporting units can fire before or after the troops on board dismount. However if these troops are to move, should the transporting units be treated as if they moved , ie have 2d6 removed from the firing dice even if they rremain stationery (because the troops moved).

In this case the carriers did not move, but fired, the platoon then dismounted and moved 4 inches (2 ,d6 bring rolled and the top one used,). They did not fire of course.

My opponent thought that as the troops moved, the carriers should have the moving firing penalty.

What is the correct way

Thanks Graham

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