Points and balancing

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Snowcat
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Snowcat »

I always thought Russian tanks, especially those from 1941-on were rather good, and more than a match for Pz III's & IV's.

No?
"When one goes, one must go with style."

Sincilbanks
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Sincilbanks »

Snowcat wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:27 pm
I always thought Russian tanks, especially those from 1941-on were rather good, and more than a match for Pz III's & IV's.

No?
With respect to the T34; like many things (gives Tiger I a sideways glance) looking at the stats alone they were formidable. In reality they had some fundamental weaknesses when the lovely design "rubber" met the cold harsh reality of combats "road".

Which isn't to say there were a bad tank, far from it. Just not the super beast they are sometimes made out to be, particularly in 1941, of course after 2 years of combat experience like every other major tank producing combatant they had learned a ton and applied those lessons to later models,

See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98JbJuXE3JE

Add in the very variable armour quality due to the issues they had with metallurgy on the early T34's and coupled with the rapid relocation of their production factories then factor in the horrible reliability of the early T34 design from deficiencies in it's engine filters, track and suspension design as well as a gearbox that gave it's drivers nightmares and it's easy to see why, although it was a shock to the Germans it didn't actually have as big an impact as the stats might suggest.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/T-34

When in June 1941, the 8th Mechanised Corps of D.I. Ryabyshev marched towards Dubno, the corps lost half of its vehicles. A.V. Bodnar, who was in combat in 1941-42, recalled:

From the point of view of operating them, the German armoured machines were almost perfect, they broke down less often. For the Germans, covering 200 km was nothing, but with T-34s something would have been lost, something would have broken down. The technological equipment of their machines was better, the combat gear was worse.[62]


The caterpillars used to break apart even without bullet or shell hits. When earth got stuck between the road wheels, the caterpillar, especially during a turn – strained to such an extent that the pins and tracks themselves couldn't hold out.[63]

The turret drive also suffered from poor reliability. The use of poorly machined, low quality steel side friction clutches and the T-34's outdated and poorly manufactured transmission meant frequent mechanical failure occurred and that they "create an inhuman harshness for the driver". A lack of properly installed and shielded radios – if they existed at all – restricted their operational range to under 16 km (9.9 mi).[44]

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Snowcat
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Snowcat »

Thanks for that Sincilbanks. Really informative. I've just become accustomed to what I read years ago about the fearsome T-34 with its very decent gun and sloped armour that German shells deflected off. That and the nasty KV-1 and 2 beasts of war. But mostly it was the T-34, especially the T-34/85.

Cheers
"When one goes, one must go with style."

Sincilbanks
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Sincilbanks »

Snowcat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:20 am
Thanks for that Sincilbanks. Really informative. I've just become accustomed to what I read years ago about the fearsome T-34 with its very decent gun and sloped armour that German shells deflected off. That and the nasty KV-1 and 2 beasts of war. But mostly it was the T-34, especially the T-34/85.

Cheers
The T34/85 was a fine, fine tank. A long way from the original T34 that rolled out in 1941. Probably more important than anything else it had room for a 3 man turret, freeing the commander up to actually command the tank properly.

A lot of that "invincible soviet tank" stuff comes from the post war German generals, who were keen to ingratiate themselves with their new post-war allies and also demonstrate to them the convenient fact that they knew how to outfight and outmanoeuvre hordes of Soviets, thus gaining themselves some important business in the post war militaries (who now had to come up with a doctrine that would work to fight off "the soviet horde" in the next potential conflict.) To say there was some "massaging" of the facts by these people would be a large understatement!

Basil Liddell Hart's book "The Other Side of the Hill" pretty much being the poster child for establishing the original narrative of the German superiority in the art of war.

It's really only since the Russian archives have been available for translation since the fall of the Berlin wall has there been any real balance brought into the historical record of the Eastern Front and how the German army actually performed...

The KV2's reputation pretty much comes from a single engagement that somehow happens to find it's way into every tactical eastern front wargame.
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raseiniai

Good design history of the KV2 tank is here..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0_dHpyYN-Y

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Snowcat
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Snowcat »

Never ceases to amaze me how there is always so much more still to learn.

Great posts.

Cheers!
"When one goes, one must go with style."

Sincilbanks
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Sincilbanks »

Absolute pleasure sir...

Youtube is an incredible resource nowadays for military history and there are many presenters who are excellent in their field, if you are not a big reader of the highly detailed histories that one can get about the Eastern Front nowadays (e.g Glantz)

The Chieftain is brilliant on the pro's and con's of individual tanks from the perspective of someone who spent his entire army life in armoured units (ie someone who actually had to live in one)

TIK is fantastic on the Eastern Front and really puts to bed some of the myths that one still finds. He's particularly good on German logistical problems

Lindybeige has some excellent videos across a wide range of subjects (and is mad as a spoon as well) but he is a very cogent explainer of some important subjects that are often overlooked.

siggian
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by siggian »

Reliability is rarely accounted for in games. A tank that breaks down before the battle starts is maybe even worse than one that was not even built.

Bertalucci
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Re: Points and balancing

Post by Bertalucci »

I am really really happy that the rules and available lists prevent, those who are inclined to do so, from fielding more FlamPanzers on the battlefield than were built etc etc. In fact I really like the whole package and will probably rebase my Spanish Civil War troops so that they can be used with these rules as well as Chain of Command.

Thumbs Up David

Bert

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