Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

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stevothedivo
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Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

Post by stevothedivo »

Greetings fellow wargamers
I just bought the PDF version of these rules and though I've not read through them completely yet I am immediately drawn to the idea of whether it is possible (or has anyone already attempted) running the game using the CoC dice mechanic. In 20yrs of gaming it's my favorite mechanic (interesting reading in the TFL 2013 Summer Special on pg 123 how Rich first dreamt the mechanic up...)
Has anyone made an attempt to do this as yet? If so - what obstacles did you find that made it impractical (before I waste time reinventing the wheel and run into problems - or perhaps it is indeed possible and a version already exists?
For years I steered clear of TFL as I don't enjoy card mechanics in general - then CoC was released and next to Warmaster/Blitzkrieg Commander/Black Powder (ie the 2d6 command roll mechanic) it overtook all my gaming interests. I've purchased Sharp Practice v2 some time ago as well but have never actually played it as it, too, relies on cards - but it looks like a well designed system were it not for the cards (though I completely respect other's love of the TFL card mechanic it's just not my cup of tea to flip cards).

Apologies for being a long time lurker/seldom poster - but before tinkering away at the rules I thought I'd throw out there this thought and see if someone has developed it before.

In gratitude
Steven

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Captain Reid
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Re: Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

Post by Captain Reid »

The basic issue would seem to be that CoC is a IGoUGo system (with the dice providing a brake on how much goes in each phase) while Infamy is designed as 'random alteration'. There's a decent reason for this.

In CoC you'll generally have at least 3 sections and a couple of support units. Usually 6 or more manoeuvre units of which at least three will usually be divided into two sub-units (teams).

In Infamy your core groups will not usually work independently. So most often you'll have one or two 'blocks of 2 or 3 or 4 groups that operate as a whole, plus 2-3 supporting groups. So generally about 4 'manoeuvre units'. 50% fewer than in CoC. So you'll get much more of an IgoUGo effect that I don't think Infamy would work well with (you could, I suppose, just reduce your order dice pool)

Also ancient''chains of command' were rather different to modern ones.

You'd have to solve the issue of assigning signa cards too.

Rich did initially think about using CoC orders dice for SP2 but decided against it because he felt it was a poorer fit than chips/cards. Because Infamy is far, far more melee-centric than either CoC or SP, he adjusted how the SP chip draw mechanic worked to reflect that.
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siggian
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Re: Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

Post by siggian »

I completely understand card activation not really appealing to you. I feel the same way.

While the CoC die mechanic is fantastic in that game, it's easy to see how brittle it is as a general rule engine. Changing the number of command dice has a massive impact on how the game is played, and this means that the game doesn't easily scale except through multiplication (a la Big CoC, which is really just CoC x2 or x3). Captain Reid has an excellent explanation of CoC doesn't really scale.

There are a couple of things to try regarding card activation though:
* Use poker chips instead to get more random activation.
* Try to play quicker so that there's always a new card.
* If you have an umpire, he can peek at the next card and if he decides there won't be effect on the current activation, he can just play it so that you have two commanders activating (this is more the case when there are multiple players per side).

stevothedivo
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Re: Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

Post by stevothedivo »

Ummmm...I remember why I love the TFL forums so much now.
Thank you lads - very concise and to the point viewpoints - which while they won't stop me playtesting a means of using dice instead of cards (as I did so successfully with IABSM) certainly inform why it is they are unlikely to work.
Atm I'm waiting on 3D Breed to release their late pledge 60 Euro KS so I can 3D print those miniatures for Infamy!, and then I guess I'll tinker around with it a bit and see what comes down the tube.
The reduction of Order dice was my actual thinking - in that if Infamy is anything like SPv2, at the end of the day, all the leaders are the "stars" of the show but I digress.
I'll keep my ramblings and theories to myself til I have something tested out and the lightbulb comes on for me as to why it won't work.

Always nice that TFL forums are a safe and respectful place to share ideas - I shall return to reading the rules now.
Very grateful

Munin
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Re: Anyone tried or think it's possible to run Infamy using the CoC dice mechanic?

Post by Munin »

I too absolutely love CoC's dice mechanism for activation, but one of the key differences between CoC and SP2 is the issue of individual soldiers' personal initiative. By WW2, infantrymen were trained to make decisions and solve problems on their own as the situation dictated. Individual initiative was highly prized. Contrast this with SP2, which is from an era of warfare where the individual soldier was expected to stand in a line and follow orders, where the effectiveness of a unit was measured in large part by its cohesive action. In SP2, activation is about your leaders, not your units. Infamy Infamy carries this same design decision.

I agree that this leader-based activation removes some freedom of action from the player - if Leader 3 never comes up, then his unit doesn't activate - but both Infamy Infamy and SP2 have the clever Flag/Signa mechanics to give commanders a pool of potential activation resources they can use at their disposal. This helps balance out the limitations of the cards. I was skeptical at first too, but now I find I really like the activation mechanics in SP2 and II. They are different than CoC, but capture their respective periods very well.

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