Combat to front and rear

Moderators: Vis Bellica, Laffe

Waterhorse
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:51 pm

Combat to front and rear

Post by Waterhorse »

If a Group is engaged to its front and then suffers an attack from the rear it loses half its dice.

Presumably this only against the original opponents and the rear attack just proceeds unopposed.

I note that if they survive they can turn to the rear. Is this only if they have driven off the the first frontal opponents or can they some how fight in both directions, all be it at massive disadvantage?

User avatar
Captain Reid
Posts: 812
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:49 am
Location: Pengwern and Pebylls
Contact:

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Captain Reid »

Presumably the Group being charged in the rear are locked in combat.

They'll still fight the Group that charges them in the rear but they'll halve their dice as per the combat table. They'd have the opportunity to turn and face the new chargers if they managed to hold on (just as if they weren't already engaged) but they'd then count as fighting to their rear against the original Group when that Group next Activated.
The climate crisis has already been solved. We already have all the facts and solutions. All we have to do is to wake up and change. - Greta Thunberg

The Saindoux Campaign, French & Indian War blog

Cerro Manteca, Peninsular War blog.

Archdukek
Posts: 5355
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Archdukek »

I would assume that if in the event a Group is required to fight both to front and rear then it would count as 50% or less in each combat thus getting fewer dice in each.

John

Hamilton
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:45 pm

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Hamilton »

Seems to me Captain Reid is right. If they survive two rounds of combat they could turn to face (presuming that's the bigger threat) but they will still be fighting two combats and if they have to make an involuntary withdrawal as a reaction to either one they will be destroyed.

For Reference:
7.2.3 Flank Attacks P. 54
"With the exception of a Square or Orb, Flank Attacks automatically break the Formation of the Groups being attacked. ...
All Groups hit in the Flank or Rear should be placed slightly apart from any other Groups, half an inch or less being sufficient, to show that these Groups are not in Formation. Benefits such as Braced Shields and Shieldwall are also removed. Other Groups in the original Formation that are not contacted are unaffected and may remain in Formation [[[may or do?]]]. However, they may not provide support to the Groups in combat. They may subsequently be moved to join the combat when activated."
-- I'm unsure about, "and may remain in formation", I don't think there is a choice, perhaps "and remain in formation"?
...
"An attacker fights with the advantage of a Flank or Rear Attack for the first two rounds of combat after which their enemy may turn to face them."

-- I don't think if they are in combat to front, perhaps could turn to face the greater threat but still leaving then with rear contact?
"Any subsequent rounds are fought as though a frontal attack. However, if the defender wins the first round of combat, killing more figures than their opponents, they may turn to face before the second round."
-- I think this would still apply.
Combat Adjustments Table P. 59
"Attacked in Flank or Rear or in March Column — Remove half the total dice"
7.6.3 Withdrawing due to Shock P. 61
If enemy "...were to Front and Rear, or on both flanks, the Group may not withdraw and is destroyed."
-- I am a little uncertain if "both flanks" means Front & both flanks or just both flanks?
Last edited by Hamilton on Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Captain Reid
Posts: 812
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:49 am
Location: Pengwern and Pebylls
Contact:

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Captain Reid »

Honestly, I think halving their dice for being attacked in the rear is probably enough penalty.

Presume straight up warriors vs warriors and no shock.

Group contacted to rear will get 8 dice plus any signa and any leader, all halved. At best maybe 8 dice (burning 6 signa and presuming a Leader II present), most likely 4, probably less because of Shock pre-existing.

Group attacking will get 8 dice but will count support from the group already contacting the front (and maybe more if another group is supporting the attacking to flank or rear), so probably 11+.

So very likely the attackers will outdice the defenders by 2 or 3 to 1.
The climate crisis has already been solved. We already have all the facts and solutions. All we have to do is to wake up and change. - Greta Thunberg

The Saindoux Campaign, French & Indian War blog

Cerro Manteca, Peninsular War blog.

Hamilton
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:45 pm

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Hamilton »

Support seems pretty narrowly defined:
7.1 SUPPORTING GROUPS P. 53
"Groups not in contact with the enemy but in contact with a friendly Group that is fighting may provide support. To provide support, a Group must be to the rear of the fighting Group, or on its right or left flank and not in combat itself. The image below shows the optimal support arrangement for Red."
7.2.6 Larger Combats P. 56
"...Group V cannot support Group W as it has moved too far forward."
I am not sure group to the rear gains Support from group to the front although I agree both could have their own supporting groups.

Archdukek
Posts: 5355
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Archdukek »

Hi Hamilton,
I think “may remain in formation” simply covers the possibility that in a 2 group formation the removal of one group by being charged in the flank or rear means there is no formation to remain part of.

John

Waterhorse
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:51 pm

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Waterhorse »

"They'll still fight the Group that charges them in the rear but they'll halve their dice as per the combat table. They'd have the opportunity to turn and face the new chargers if they managed to hold on (just as if they weren't already engaged) but they'd then count as fighting to their rear against the original Group when that Group next Activated."

That's pretty much the way I see it. Turning to face is just a possibility/gamble on how the cards will fall. Its a bit of an odd concept as it allows for each of the opposing units to be ignored in turn, other than the dice being halved for the trapped unit.

I'm just trying to get a sensible way forwards, as this going to feature in our next game (when we resume from this week) and my opponent has yet to realise its going to happen. Unfortunately, its also the first time it will have occurred in an Infamy game!

Having two Elite Warrior groups bitten in the bum by two Alea Cavalry, while they are engaged to their front, is not the best time to be working through the rules for an answer in a calm and concise manner!

Hamilton
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:45 pm

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Hamilton »

Archdukek wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:59 pm
Hi Hamilton,
I think “may remain in formation” simply covers the possibility that in a 2 group formation the removal of one group by being charged in the flank or rear means there is no formation to remain part of. John
Hi John, yes indeed and I don't think it matters as the group may leave the formation whenever they want anyway.

Hamilton
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:45 pm

Re: Combat to front and rear

Post by Hamilton »

Waterhorse wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:12 pm
I'm just trying to get a sensible way forwards,...
So do you feel like you have enough of an answer to provide a way forward?

Hamilton

Post Reply