Excess shock but winning combat.

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runninghorse74
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Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by runninghorse74 »

Hello all,
I have 2 very similar situations during combat.
I thought I saw this answered somewhere but couldn't find it.

Situation 1
I have a roman warrior group being attacked by a German warrior group.
After the first round of combat the Romans killed 1 more of the enemy than the Germans did, so this is a draw.
However the Romans took more shock than they have men left so have excess shock.

My understanding is the Romans withdrawal but do not roll on the bad things happen table as then did not loose the combat.
And the German group remains stationary.
Is this correct?


Situation 2
Very similar but the Romans win the combat by killing 2 more of the enemy so the Romans have won the combat.
But again the Romans have excess shock.

I think the result is the Romans can stand or advance 2" if they wish.
The Germans withdrawal and roll on the bad things happen table as they lost the combat and were pushed back but the Romans again do not roll on the table.
Is this correct?

Thanks

I have just read the errata and edited situation 2, this covers that very well.

guthroth
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by guthroth »

Case 1 above exactly matches what happened to us on Sunday evening, so I assume we were in the same game 😁

Paul H
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Location: Alkmaar

Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Paul H »

Hi,

I don't claim to be an authority - but have been playing it differently, so that withdrawal due to excess shock inflicted in combat triggers a roll on the force morale table. The erratum deleting 'by Defeat' in line 3 of that table seems to me to support that way of doing things, as does the use of the expression 'pushed back' in the fourth para of 7.6.3.

So, in the second case, I would have both groups go back and both groups dice on the force morale table.

Forst
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Forst »

I also think any withdrawal due to excess shock means they need to test morale.

I would also think the impact of excess shock overrides the result table.

Whether the Germans follow up depends on fervour.

In case 1 Romans fall back and test. If Germans have fervour they follow up and may reconnect but the Romans still get the win bonus! (1+ extra kills). If the Germans have no fervour they stand. Melee ends no win bonus.

In case 2 again Romans must withdraw, fervour will allow Germans to advance, if have shock they all will fall back. If they establish contact,continue with Romans win bonus. If not Germans stand and combat stops. So no win bonus. Either side going backwards with shock will test morale?

runninghorse74
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by runninghorse74 »

The errata has cleared up situation 2.
If you win combat and have excess shock you advance or if Roman you may stand.
You do not need too withdraw.
And hence do not need to roll on the BTH table.

The errata also says that if the 2 opponents tie and both have excess shock then they both withdraw.
It then doesn't say that they roll on the BTH table.
So I believe this has cleared up situation 1 now as well with the auxiliaries not needing to test on the BTH table.

Hopefully my group agrees with this and this will be how we play it, otherwise it'll be more discussion and perhaps a die roll 😲

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Quackstheking
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Quackstheking »

Any withdrawal from combat by a warrior group caused by excess shock will trigger a roll on the BTH table. The errata removed the words “by defeat” from the 3rd line in the BTH table.

Also as per the FAQ, in a drawn combat where both sides have excess shock, then both withdraw and by virtue of the above, both roll on the BTH table. It is an involuntary withdrawal.

Don
Last edited by Quackstheking on Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Quackstheking
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Quackstheking »

To address each of the situations posted the results would be as follows:-

1. The Romans withdraw by virtue of having excess shock. This triggers a roll on the BTH table (remember the errata has removed “by defeat”). The Barbarians will follow up the greater of their remaining Fervour or 2”. If they contact the Romans then follow the process at the end of 7.6.1 on page 60 to determine if another bound of combat is fought on this activation. The Romans will get +2 d6 by virtue of winning the previous round by +1.

2. The result is exactly as you have described and covered by the FAQ.

Hope this helps.

Don

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Quackstheking
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Quackstheking »

Yes as per the first paragraph on Page 60 following the Combat Results table:-

"Opposing Groups remaining in contact will fight two rounds of combat each time either side is activated. Where one side retires due to a combat result, a Barbarian Group and any supporting Groups, will immediately advance 1” for each point of Fervour on the Group or 2”, whichever is greater. A Roman Group and any supporting Groups may choose to advance up to 2” or may elect not to follow up at all"

The Romans have retired due to a combat result which has left them with excess shock, so as they fall back the Barbarians follow up.

In addition the number of rounds of combat they have fought will decide when they fight again as per the following paragraph:-

"If the Groups advancing in this manner make contact with the retiring Group, then the Close Combat continues if only one round has just been fought on the current Activation. If two rounds have been fought, they the Close Combat will continue when either side is next activated."

Hope that helps

Don

sackatatties
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by sackatatties »

Quackstheking wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:57 am
Any withdrawal from combat by a warrior group caused by excess shock will trigger a roll on the BTH table. The errata removed the words “by defeat” from the 3rd line in the BTH table.

Also as per the FAQ, in a drawn combat where both sides have excess shock, then both withdraw and by virtue of the above, both roll on the BTH table. It is an involuntary withdrawal.

Don
Hi Don, this is incorrect. The BTH test only happens if "pushed back in close combat". The word 'defeat' has been removed so it's only close combat that causes a BTH test and nothing else. It just makes the line consistent with the one for Elites further up in the same table.

Bottom of page 59: "The result of the Close Combat is determined by the successful number of Kills (not Shock) on both sides after the armour rolls are made. The result is determined on the table below, taking into account the difference in number of Kills between the two sides".

The following table talks about winning by +1 or +2 kills and states the combat result. It's the combat result that determines whether a BTH test is taken or not. Simply retiring due to shock is not a reason for a BTH test unless the unit is broken as a result.

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Quackstheking
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Re: Excess shock but winning combat.

Post by Quackstheking »

In case anyone hasn't seen it, this is Richard's reply to the same question that was posted on Facebook:-

Lardy Rich
Admin
Right, boys and girls. Firstly, apologies for absence, I've been on the poorly list, but getting gradually better. As there is some confusion, let me clarify what happens and why.

In this combat example, the Romans have inflicted 1 more kill than the Barbarians, so they haven’t “won” the combat, it is on-going. However, they DO have excess shock, this means that they fall back 1” per point of excess shock. This represents the combined effect of fatigue and morale on the unit fighting and the Barbarians will follow up.

On the question of is this a roll on the Bad Things Happen Table for the Romans, the answer is “ Yes” - it is the falling back from close combat even from Shock alone that triggers the BTH roll. The line on the BTH table reads “Elite/Warrior Group pushed back in Close Combat” - the Romans have been pushed back in close combat by virtue of receiving excess shock and it is this result which affects the Force as a whole
The Romans have had such shock inflicted on them from close combat, whilst not having managed to beat the Barbarians, that they fall back from combat. All the rest of their friends can see is their own friends falling back from combat - they are not aware if it's a draw or their friends have one more kill - all they know is their friends are being pushed back in a combat!

This then could have an impact on the Force Morale which is how the whole Roman force feels. Of course if in the follow up the Barbarians contact and fight the Romans, the Romans will benefit from +2D6 in the combat by virtue of having inflicted one more kill not from having “won” the combat. They are still likely to have excess shock at the end of this combat and will fall back again unless the Roman Player has Signa Cards in his hand which he can play to reduce the shock.

To win a Combat outright, you need to win by 2 kills - then the amount of shock that the winner has is ignored and follow ups or not take place as detailed on p.60.

Remember in the event of a unit routing through excess shock, then there is no roll for being pushed back in Combat – only for the rout. See page 69.

Hope that helps.


Here is the appropriate link.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1682898 ... &ref=notif

Thanks to Rich for clearing this up and putting the issue to bed

Don

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