Opportunity charge.

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nikjen66
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by nikjen66 » Sat May 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Doh 2. Should read.... it’s responding to being charged.

Bloody auto spell and fat fingers! 😂😂😂

Archdukek
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by Archdukek » Sat May 18, 2019 10:45 pm

bigduke1327 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:07 pm
Sorry guys, I still don't read it that way.

At the point when the target of the original charge would declare their reaction to being charged, the non-phasing player declares his Opportunity Charge instead.

Mart
Hi Mart,

If you read the Charge Procedure on page 44 you will find that the target unit does not declare its reaction to the charge until after the chargers have moved to the 5cm [3"] point, not at the point of charge declaration. An Opportunity Charge is only declared after the original chargers begin their move as per page 51, not at the point of the original charge declaration.

DB has already confirmed in the FAQ that the target of a charge can never declare a charge. Only a supporting unit may declare an Opportunity Charge.

John

bigduke1327
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by bigduke1327 » Sat May 18, 2019 11:07 pm

It all comes down to this:

Is it -
a) A unit 'actually' being charged cannot declare its' own charge
OR
b) A unit which has had a charge 'declared' against it (whether that charge is later cancelled by an opportunity charge or not) cannot declare it's own charge

Until we know which one from DB then it's just interpretation.

And John, your line
Only a supporting unit may declare an Opportunity Charge.
should read
A supporting unit may only declare an Opportunity charge.
Subtle but different. Any unit that can reach the original chargers once they've moved 5cm can declare an Opportunity Charge.

Mart

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Polish Lancer
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by Polish Lancer » Sun May 19, 2019 3:03 am

Great discussion. But I sit in Mart's court on this one. My view... Opportunity charge is the ability to intercept a charge declared by the phasing player, thereby interrupting at a point within the phasing players charge declaration phase. This declared opportunity charge immediately requires the non phasing player to make a successful DT check to interrupt the phasing player charge. The original target should not have to declare its reaction because the non phasing has interrupted and become the phasing player in this instance only.


A short video demonstrating my understanding imho https://youtu.be/33WFR1zavJ8
Last edited by Polish Lancer on Sun May 19, 2019 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

nikjen66
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by nikjen66 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:06 am

I haven’t had this much point since advising counsel on the finer points of a section 8 warrant!! 😂😂

Page 40. Section 6 (in bold) declare reaction to a charge, states that reaction of the unit receiving a charge is declared prior to any movement taking place. So not at the point that the charging unit reaches the 5cm point but when the charge is declared.

In the example of an opportunity charge on page 52- example E- It is clear that the chargers move to the 5cm point before its charge is cancelled by the opportunity charge interrupts it.

Taking both section 6 and Example E into account it would appear that although the original charge is cancelled the target of that charge would have had to declare a response, obviously it didn’t know if the opportunity charge would succeed so a commander on the ground will not be waiting until the ‘5cm’ point to decide.

Under Opportunity Charges on page 51, section on Procedure section 2. It states that when the phasing players unit is at the 5cm the target must still be within charge range of the opportunity chargers. Again this confirms that the original charge move takes place.

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Polish Lancer
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by Polish Lancer » Sun May 19, 2019 6:50 am

nikjen66 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:06 am
I haven’t had this much point since advising counsel on the finer points of a section 8 warrant!! 😂😂

Page 40. Section 6 (in bold) declare reaction to a charge, states that reaction of the unit receiving a charge is declared prior to any movement taking place. So not at the point that the charging unit reaches the 5cm point but when the charge is declared.

In the example of an opportunity charge on page 52- example E- It is clear that the chargers move to the 5cm point before its charge is cancelled by the opportunity charge interrupts it.

Taking both section 6 and Example E into account it would appear that although the original charge is cancelled the target of that charge would have had to declare a response, obviously it didn’t know if the opportunity charge would succeed so a commander on the ground will not be waiting until the ‘5cm’ point to decide.

Under Opportunity Charges on page 51, section on Procedure section 2. It states that when the phasing players unit is at the 5cm the target must still be within charge range of the opportunity chargers. Again this confirms that the original charge move takes place.
Example E does not say that the chargers moves to the 5cm position from the unit it has declared against. It says that they move "forward" 5cm, then halt. As per P51 - Procedure point 2. Which is and reads totally differently from P44 Conducting a Charge - point 4 - Attacker moves up to the 5cm position from the enemy.

Also p51 Procedure - point 4 clearly states that after the resolution of the Opportunity charge , the "interruption" ceases and the Phasing player carries on with any remain charges.

bellebsc
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by bellebsc » Sun May 19, 2019 9:53 am

I wasn't expecting that many responses.

The way I have played the charge procedure is.

The phasing player nominates his charges. So these are the variable outcomes possible

1. He charges a target and the target has supports then those supports are automatically drawn into a support roll if within 5cm and cannot themselves declare an opportunity charge.

2. He charges the target and the opposing player has a cav unit not in supporting role but the cav is under 15cm away from the charger so there for can not claim an opportunity charge as the distance is too close to react.

3. He charges the the target and the enemy cav has a friendly unit outwith his support distance and outwith 15cm so there for claims an opportunity charge. The original charger will move 5cm towards his intended target and that's where the opportunity procedure takes place.

Which leads me to my original question. Can the cav unit who was about to be charged declare his own charge AFTER the phasing player charges have been completed.

Archdukek
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by Archdukek » Sun May 19, 2019 10:05 am

Interesting little video which does a good job of presenting your and Mart's position. However, I remain of the view that the rules do not involve any movement of units in the charge declaration phases of the overall charge procedure. It's only once the original chargers start to move after all charges on both sides have been declared that the Opportunity Chargers test to charge.

We are clearly not going to convince each other so as Mart says let's hope for a word from DB.

Meantime, I'm left curious about what the OP hoped to do if the original target unit could declare a charge. Care to illuminate us R? :-)

By the way supporting units can declare an Opportunity Charge against the original chargers according to the FAQ as Mart correctly cites it above.

John

bellebsc
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by bellebsc » Sun May 19, 2019 10:33 am

I left my british Lt cav exposed as went too far into enemy territory. The French manger to get 3 cuirassier regiments more or less on my flank. So it came to the next turn and thankfully the brits won initiative and declared charges on 2 of the curiarssiers leaving one dangerously just off from my flank who then declared opportunity charge which has left the open question about the French cuirassier who is no longer being charged.

Thanks for correcting me on supports may still opportunity charge John.

nikjen66
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Re: Opportunity charge.

Post by nikjen66 » Sun May 19, 2019 10:03 pm

Apologies to Polish Lancer, yes the chargers move 5cm rather than to the 5cm point. Your video does help greatly.

I am now confused totally as having the initiative to charge seems to give little benefit other than to announce to your opponent where your charges will be and as the player with the initiative you cannot declare opportunity charges either!! :?

I’m still not convinced that the charge declaration phase includes the physical movement of units, until both sides have declared all charges and the targets their response. Of course this would still not prevent a non-phasing unit declaring an opportunity charge as Polish Lancers video outlines really clearly.

Either way happy to await Gods observations. :D

Cheers Nick

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