Charge Questions

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Neilad
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:00 am

Charge Questions

Post by Neilad » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:18 am

Just starting out with the rules. Have played one game of General d'Armee so I know the mechanics are similar but still to digest the GdA rules properly and preparing myself for a game of PC. I have a number of questions revolving around charges. It would be great if I could get some clarification on this. Sorry this is a long post. Any assistance appreciated.

1. On p38, Conducting the Charge part 7. “If the chargers can reach the 5cm [3"] point, complete the charge, but all units will be unformed.”
Does “complete the charge” mean that you go through the whole phase of fire and charge combat and associated results regardless of the fact you couldn’t reach the enemy units? Ie is the mechanic there to say the charge will be completed at a stretch, hence why the unit goes automatically into unformed. (An unformed outcome may have been a result of the defending fire anyway but even if it isn’t, you get an unformed status on any ET and also a -2 modifier in the charge combat)

2. On p38, Conducting the Charge part 8. “If the chargers are unable to reach the 5cm [3"] point, all units halt at the end of the charge move unformed. No charge combat takes place.”
a) By all units does this mean all declared support units also move to unformed?
b) The example of p43[C], last sentence makes no mention of the units becoming unformed. Is the example incorrect, as it misleads the reader to think the charge is just cancelled with no consequence? If the example is correct, when does and doesn't a unformed status apply?
c) If the charge is cancelled, can the unit and supports move in the movement phase?
d) If units are moved to unformed, and the units don’t move in the movement phase, regardless of whether they can or can’t, will this non movement remove the unformed from the unit for the next turn?

3. When is a flank charge applied?
P39, 9c. “Charged in Flank or Rear. If a unit is charged in the flank or rear, it must first take a See the Elephant test. Pass = May only wheel in order (or about face) to oppose the enemy. Fail = immediately apply the result. All supports act the same as the lead unit.”
However the example B on page 43 makes no mention of having to do any test to move and only applies a -2 modifier to the fire for moving.
a) Is the example incorrect? If not, when is the test required?
b) If the unit is able to move or about face is the unit still classed as being charged in flank/rear for modifiers to resolve the charge combat? I assume yes but its not clear.

4. When does p39 part d. come into effect?
“Casualties. All casualties caused are spread out as evenly as possible
amongst all attacking units, with any odd or left over casualties
always reverting to the lead charge unit.”

I read in a previous post (https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... =39&t=4584) that if a unit is charging in line with two other units in rear support as per the photo on page 36 that because the support units are in the rear, that the lead unit will take all casualties and also any See Elephant Test. This would mean all defending units are firing upon the lead unit and I’m ok with that. The supports are just then providing support rerolls.

In this same post, the poster discusses flank supports and what happens with the firing result. In this case the support units are described as being directly opposing each other with lead attacker and defender in the middle.
A B C
X Y Z

In this case, the answer given in the post is that each unit fires against the unit directly opposite and the casualties and ET are applied as such. In the example given, unit A got 1 casualty from X, B got 1 from Y and C got 2 + ET from Z. This seems to contradict the rule on p39. I would have thought the result stated in the post would apply if these were all independent charges but not if a single supported charge. Ie if the fire from Z resulting in 2/ET was against independent charges then the 2 +ET would apply to C, and C only, but if a single supported charge should the P39 rule apply that 4 total casualties therefore A and C get 1 and B gets 2 casualties? Would the fact that an ET result was obtained mean this is tested against unit B? or should it still only apply to unit C. If the results are to apply to the unit directly opposite as the previous post suggests, I’m confused as to when p39 part d applies as part of the firing stage of the charge. Maybe someone could explain out the entire scenario to make it clear.

5. If the result of charge combat is to take the ground, I assume the defending unit and its supports move back and all the charging units and supports move forward to take the ground. The rule says on take the ground, the unit gets to recover a casualty. Does only the lead unit recover a casualty or does each support unit also recover a casualty? and would any other things like this apply to each unit equally?

6. If the support units were not in line with the front of the lead unit, does it matter if the support units wouldn’t have had enough move distance to make the enemy units in the charge? Ie the lead unit can make the enemy but the supports were a couple cm off. If it does matter, what would be the consequences of this with both fire and charge results? Would the supports use the same charge rules in that if they can't make the 5cm mark they can't support, or if they can they automatically move to unformed? or doesn't it matter as they are classed as supports to the lead?

Thanks
Daniel

DCRBrown
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Charge Questions

Post by DCRBrown » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:58 am

D,

On p38, Conducting the Charge part 7. “If the chargers can reach the 5cm [3"] point, complete the charge, but all units will be unformed.”
Does “complete the charge” mean that you go through the whole phase of fire and charge combat and associated results regardless of the fact you couldn’t reach the enemy units?

A = Yes. You "gain" the extra 5cms at the cost of going unformed.

2. On p38, Conducting the Charge part 8. “If the chargers are unable to reach the 5cm [3"] point, all units halt at the end of the charge move unformed. No charge combat takes place.”
a) By all units does this mean all declared support units also move to unformed?


A = Yes.

b) The example of p43[C], last sentence makes no mention of the units becoming unformed. Is the example incorrect, as it misleads the reader to think the charge is just cancelled with no consequence? If the example is correct, when does and doesn't a unformed status apply?

A = The example is concentrating on how to use the charge bonus and wheeling. All the above would still apply

c) If the charge is cancelled, can the unit and supports move in the movement phase?

A = No = any unit that has taken any action in the charge phase can take no further actions later in the phase. See p26 The Game Turn.

d) If units are moved to unformed, and the units don’t move in the movement phase, regardless of whether they can or can’t, will this non movement remove the unformed from the unit for the next turn?

A = See answer above.

3. When is a flank charge applied?
P39, 9c. “Charged in Flank or Rear. If a unit is charged in the flank or rear, it must first take a See the Elephant test. Pass = May only wheel in order (or about face) to oppose the enemy. Fail = immediately apply the result. All supports act the same as the lead unit.”
However the example B on page 43 makes no mention of having to do any test to move and only applies a -2 modifier to the fire for moving.
a) Is the example incorrect? If not, when is the test required?


A = Good spot - the test still applies.

b) If the unit is able to move or about face is the unit still classed as being charged in flank/rear for modifiers to resolve the charge combat? I assume yes but it's not clear.

A = If you pass you're ok. If unformed still flanked.

4. When does p39 part d. come into effect?
“Casualties. All casualties caused are spread out as evenly as possible
amongst all attacking units, with any odd or left over casualties
always reverting to the lead charge unit.”


A = During a Charge.

I read in a previous post (https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... =39&t=4584) that if a unit is charging in line with two other units in rear support as per the photo on page 36 that because the support units are in the rear, that the lead unit will take all casualties and also any See Elephant Test. This would mean all defending units are firing upon the lead unit and I’m ok with that. The supports are just then providing support rerolls.

In this case, the answer given in the post is that each unit fires against the unit directly opposite and the casualties and ET are applied as such. In the example given, unit A got 1 casualty from X, B got 1 from Y and C got 2 + ET from Z. This seems to contradict the rule on p39. I would have thought the result stated in the post would apply if these were all independent charges but not if a single supported charge. I.e. if the fire from Z resulting in 2/ET was against independent charges then the 2 +ET would apply to C, and C only, but if a single supported charge should the P39 rule apply that 4 total casualties therefore A and C get 1 and B gets 2 casualties? Would the fact that an ET result was obtained mean this is tested against unit B? or should it still only apply to unit C. If the results are to apply to the unit directly opposite as the previous post suggests, I’m confused as to when p39 part d applies as part of the firing stage of the charge. Maybe someone could explain out the entire scenario to make it clear.


A = Spreading the casualties would apply if say you have say, a large line firing across two attacking lines. Both attacking units are opposite the defenders so both take casualties. In the example all units are directly opposed to each other, one does not overlap or cross other units, so all firing is straight ahead. That example is used to simplify the example (or not as the case may be! ;) )

5. If the result of charge combat is to take the ground, I assume the defending unit and its supports move back and all the charging units and supports move forward to take the ground. The rule says on take the ground, the unit gets to recover a casualty. Does only the lead unit recover a casualty or does each support unit also recover a casualty? and would any other things like this apply to each unit equally?

A = If you take the ground the defender will have been whipped or routed so will have "move back". Only the lead unit recovers a casualty.

6. If the support units were not in line with the front of the lead unit, does it matter if the support units wouldn’t have had enough move distance to make the enemy units in the charge? I.e. the lead unit can make the enemy but the supports were a couple cm off. If it does matter, what would be the consequences of this with both fire and charge results? Would the supports use the same charge rules in that if they can't make the 5cm mark they can't support, or if they can they automatically move to unformed? or doesn't it matter as they are classed as supports to the lead?

A = Supports do not need to make contact. E.G. A rear support will never be in contact.

Hope that helps.

DB

Neilad
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:00 am

Re: Charge Questions

Post by Neilad » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:30 pm

Thanks Dave,

I think I understand these all better now. Reading through the rules again to pick up some things I missed first time round and other queries are now becoming clearer.

Cheers
Daniel

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