Fire from open-topped vehicles

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kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Thanks John, so why go to all the trouble of building an expensive, bullet-proof cross country vehicle and giving it to the guys at the tip of the spear, ie. the 1 Btn in each Pz Division? Why not just give them cheaper trucks, something they never had enough of?

This scenario (from the special) is about a German attack ... i think they did, even after '43! Although I'd admit, it was probably less than before '43!

I've certainly read that the PzGrens riding in 251s formed part of the second wave of a 'standard' Pz attack and dismount as close as possible to the point where they must engage the enemy. I've also read that they got dropped off in cover, ideally at around 400m, so it probably depends greatly on the enemy fire and terrain - flexibility being the key point.

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Derek H
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Derek H »

Halftracks have better mobility than trucks at the grand tactical and strategic levels.
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kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

So why not have just half-track trucks? You put armour on things for a reason ...

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John Thomas8
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by John Thomas8 »

As a game GM, I'm looking for a good game, historical as possible. Letting one side roll up and fire with a brazillion dice and no counter doesn't make for either a good game or make it historical.

Why make "bulletproof" vehicles? Maybe not so bulletproof:


The M2HB .50 caliber Lead bullet round has a penetration of:

22mm of armor at 100 meters
19mm of armor at 500 meters

The M2HB .50 caliber armor piercing bullet has a penetration of:

28 to 26mm of armor at 100 meters
25 to 22mm of armor at 500 meters

The Sd.Kfz. 251 German half track had 15mm to 6mm of armor.

Read more: http://442ndforum.proboards.com/thread/ ... z4jEAeXnU4

I would imagine that the Soviet Maxim had similar penetration values.

And firing accurately out of the back of a moving vehicle isn't accomplished very often, either.

No, I'd either disallow it altogether and make the PGs fight in their typical historical fashion or provide the Russians a suitable counter.

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

We all want different things from our toys. As I asked originally, I'm keen to understand how IABSM handles this situation which is perfectly possible on a WW2 battlefield - just disallowing seems unrealistic for me.

I'm not sure what the figures for the .50 cal show ... I assume the penetration figures for the 37mm or 88 would also show an ability to penetrate. The 251 was designed with heavily sloped armour (unlike the US M3) specifically to protect against standard rifle fire and fragments facing it at the time it was developed. Obvious, as time went on, it was not able to defend against bigger calibers, AT rounds or ATRs; thats life.

Cerebus
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Cerebus »

Could you not just have the 251 being used as a mobile MMG nest? Whilst full of troops it can move as normal but troops in it cant fire. It however can fire if stationary (only the MG , not the troops). Once the soldiers have got out then it can carry on the same but the troops are now down by 2 soldiers as there are 2 still in the 251 (one driving, one firing). If you want to park your 251 close to enemy lines then that's your call. That make sense?

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

I think that works - my 6mm squads are modelled as separate bases for the LMG and riflemen.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Cerebus wrote:Could you not just have the 251 being used as a mobile MMG nest? Whilst full of troops it can move as normal but troops in it cant fire. It however can fire if stationary (only the MG , not the troops). Once the soldiers have got out then it can carry on the same but the troops are now down by 2 soldiers as there are 2 still in the 251 (one driving, one firing). If you want to park your 251 close to enemy lines then that's your call. That make sense?
IIRC that's how it is done in CoC - you can either move or fire with the 251 when it is down to 2 men.
Seems reasonable in light of how they seemed to operate.

Last time this topic came up I was arguing for the dismount at 3-400m as this seems to be SOP but someone found references to them fighting mounted on some village assaults - prob not those with lots of ATG.

I also recalled one account od 2nd SS being ordered to counter attack a Soviet breakthrough of t-34 and infantry.

The PG's had to fight mounted and although they finished off the Soviet infantry they lost 65% of their tracks within a short space of time

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John Thomas8
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by John Thomas8 »

kula66 wrote:We all want different things from our toys. As I asked originally, I'm keen to understand how IABSM handles this situation which is perfectly possible on a WW2 battlefield - just disallowing seems unrealistic for me.
Yep, and it coulda possibly might of happened occasionally. But it wasn't doctrine, that's why I'd be adverse to allowing it, like I wouldn't allow Bren carrier run ups or M3 half tracks to do it either. These newly-minted APCs weren't AFVs, they were transports that kinda sorta protected against artillery fragments. And I'd seriously consider at least halving any shooting dice when the thing is moving. Have you fired anything from a tracked vehicle running cross country? Nigh on impossible to aim, hard as dickens to keep the belt straight and feeding true and your mates in the compartment are going to hate you for spewing them with smoking hot brass.

YMMV.

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Thanks John. First off, I'm an arm-chair 'solider' and I have the greatest respect for anyone who puts their life on the line for their country - so, you are right, I have no experience of shooting a MG from a moving half-track while being shot at. I value your comment on how difficult it is.

Interestingly, I've just watched what claims to be a PzGren training film which showed 251s driving over dug-in Soviet troops; and yes, I know alot of the video/photos on the Internet were taken for propaganda purposes and that real tactics on the battlefield are often very different, etc.

Back to the original question regarding how the rules model the situation, I guess the -3 in CC (1 dice for the move in the vehicle, 1 for debussing & 1 for moving into CC) is supposed to reflect how difficult it is to debus from a vehicle, charge 50m into CC with guys trying to kill you. I'm sure it happened on the real battlefield.

Once again, thanks for commenting with your take on my question.

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