Fire from open-topped vehicles

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kula66
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Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Seems like every time I start a game, I hit a question! Trouble with solo is not having someone to discuss it with!

I have a platoon of PzGrens (2xLMG) in 251s moving across country to assault a Soviet squad + LMG in a trench, say 30" away.

What can each PcGren squad fire while embarked? 2xLMGs (2x4=8 dice) or all squad weapons (4+1=5 dice)? Do they count as tripod when on a 251? The Soviets are in a trench so, poor shot. The German 251s are moving on a hunt order, so how are they penalised for moving? -1 dice?

Do Soviet LMGs regularly get AT ammo in '44? Are the PzGrens immune while in the 251s while outside 16".

Lots of questions, sorry
James

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Vis Bellica
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Vis Bellica »

Hi James

I would play it that the 251s shoot only with their front mounted MGs as they approach the trench, with the squad on board hunkered down. Standard squadD6 less 1D6 for each dice used for movement.

Soviet LMGs fire back at zero dice i.e. they don't roll, but the Germans roll an armour save against no hits, so the best the Soviets can do is an Equal score (no hits, no saves).

Hope that helps

R

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Ok, thanks - makes sense.
Rgds,
James

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

So, following on, do my PzGrens race forward in their 251s to within 5" of the Soviets (outside of 4" infantry anti-tank assault range), hoping to suppress them on route, disembark and charge into close-assault? Or just try and blast them from inside the 251s with relative immunity???

I tried the close-assault variant and it seems tricky to pull off:
Platoon gets activated:
- Move to 5" - 1 action
- Disembark - 1 action
- Move 2+" to close assault range - 1 action
- Now when you close assault, you get a -3 for using 3 actions to get into close assault - a big minus.

Do you disembark just troops to close assault and allow the 2 x LMG (6 dice) shots from close range, ie. the LMG guy stays in the 251 when the rifle/smg guys disembark and go CC?

Plus, given that suppressed states get changed to pinned at the end of the previous turn, you need to get lucky and have another unit activate prior to close assault to hopefully suppress the target squad. Synchronising units seems really trick - as I'm sure it is in RL :)

Questions, questions, sorry guys :)

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John Thomas8
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by John Thomas8 »

That's not the way 251s were used. They're more taxi-like, getting the troops within shouting distance but keeping out of ATG trouble. As a GM I'd disallow it altogether.

YMMV, but "play the period and not the rules" means something. :-)

kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Interesting - so expensive lorries rather than M-2s?

I did read something that said they were so rare and were deemed too valuable to risk in combat, however you do see a lot of photos/videos of 251s in combat settings with troops hiding behind them etc. Also, a lot of the specialist versions were definitely meant for the front line, eg 251/9, flame-thrower versions, pioneer version etc. and obviously they generally carried MGs!

Archdukek
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Archdukek »

Most of those photographs are posed propaganda pieces demonstrating the armoured might of the German Wermacht, conveniently ignoring the fact that at least three quarters of Panzer grenadiers travelled in trucks, even in the Panzer divisions. Try telling that to your average wargamer though.

As John T says they were really battle taxis and squads would be reluctant to risk losing their precious transport. They would disembark and assault on foot with the 251 possibly supporting with the MG from a distance. These were not Infantry Fighting Vehicles in the modern sense.
Yes the Germans were trained and did sometimes carry out break through assaults while mounted, unlike the Allies, but you could anticipate that the enemy had been well and truly softened up before that happened.

John

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Derek H
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by Derek H »

Archdukek wrote:Most of those photographs are posed propaganda pieces demonstrating the armoured might of the German Wermacht, conveniently ignoring the fact that at least three quarters of Panzer grenadiers travelled in trucks, even in the Panzer divisions. Try telling that to your average wargamer though.
Ha. Not only do I know that, I bought the toys. Thirty assorted Kfzs for my Schützen company.

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kula66
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by kula66 »

Well, I have a company set of 251s in both late and early colours plus another two company sets of Kfzs, one in desert and one in grey and a platoon or so of bikes - plenty of options ... the beauty of 6mm :) (EDIT: Oh and some a platoon of 251 in desert colours)

But in this game (from an excellent Special) I have PzGrens in 251s assaulting while my Pz IVHs and a AAA provide covering file ... I guess I just play it as outlined at the top: 2xLMGs stay in the 251s blazing away until within assault range, when the rifles jump out and close assault - I'm sure it happened somewhere in WW2!

Every time I've played it so far, the firepower of the 8 x LMGs is so great that, despite the wall cover, the Soviets are all on the run before the CC happens, thanks anyway gents.
Last edited by kula66 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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John Thomas8
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Re: Fire from open-topped vehicles

Post by John Thomas8 »

But that's not remotely accurate. IRL, the 8 LMGs maneuvered on foot over open ground, subject to arty and Maxim fire, just like the rest of the country's infantry did. And 251s that wandered too close to the front line became excellent light-skinned targets for ATGs and other big guns. PGs did far more retreating than advancing after mid '43.

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