Air Gunners: Can They and?

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General_Pettygree
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Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by General_Pettygree » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:25 pm

HE 111s have Air Gunner Fire Factors for:
Front:1
Left Side: 1
Right Side: 1
Rear: 3
May all four positions fire on an air gunner card?
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Is four the correct # of air gunner cards for:
6x 111s
4x 110s
10 aircraft divided by four rounded up = three.
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Respectfully,
Bill P.

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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by Archdukek » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:31 pm

Hi Bill,
We certainly always played it that aircraft with multiple air gunner positions could fire from each of those positions if there was an enemy aircraft in arc when the Air Gunner card came out. So yes all 4 positions on the HE111 could fire.

The correct number of air gunner cards for 10 aircraft would be 3, not 4 is my understanding.

John

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Emilio
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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by Emilio » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:19 pm

Three cards for 10 planes.

I´d say that a He-111 only can fire one of the side MG, because they were manned by the same man. So only 3 positions can fire for me.

Archdukek
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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by Archdukek » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:21 pm

Sorry, should have been clearer, and checked a model HE111. :oops:
As Emilio says if the same gunner is covering two firing arcs he can only engage an aircraft in one arc when the Air Gunner card is drawn.

John

General_Pettygree
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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by General_Pettygree » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:23 am

Thank you for your views Gentlemen,
---
Just reread p. 10. Looks like three gunner cards.
10 divided by 4 = 2.5 rounded up to 3.
My worry: Too many cards and too much game time consumption.
Thus, in the game we just played with ten aircraft there could be a minimum of 30 air gunner shots/turn.
More if several gunners/plane could fire.
Hardly happens. Still --- it could.
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If this needs fixing in our local games, then perhaps I could cobble together an E/Z air gunner option.
Throw 2D6 = 12 to hit a fighter.
Throw 2D6 = 11=12 to hit a bomber.
Adapted from the Optional "Simple" Flak concept in Rule 15.5 on p. 42.
Purpose: faster play.
Pondering.
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The HE111 side gunner idea mentioned above is sensible.
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Respectfully,
Bill P.

James C
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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by James C » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:04 pm

For gunners, on each card I only allow one attempt at shooting an enemy aircraft. So one gunner plus 1 dice for each additional gunner in range per the rules. One change I do make from the rules is that I only allow additional gunners within 4 hexes of the target vice 8. With 8 usually the entire formation could direct their fire at 1 fighter which seemed ahistorical.

Doing the above, at most you’ll compute gunner attacks 3 times in a hand for 9 bombers.

-James

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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by Captain W Martin » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:13 pm

Great post!

Can I tack on a query on the stats for the Do 17? To me it looks like it had a Front upper and lower MG and a Rear upper and lower MG.....the books stats confuse me.

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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by AndyC » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:03 pm

Just to add to this, on the air gunners card can any/all gunners who have a target fire? Or just one per card?

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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by Archdukek » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:10 pm

AndyC wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:03 pm
Just to add to this, on the air gunners card can any/all gunners who have a target fire? Or just one per card?
Any and all air gunners who have a valid target can fire per card. However, as James says it would one primary gunner on a target with any additional ones providing support dice if they are not off shooting someone else.

John

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Re: Air Gunners: Can They and?

Post by James C » Sat May 18, 2019 12:04 pm

So I’m constantly rethinking my interpretation of the rules. The way I was playing before, an entire 9 plane formation of bombers could direct all of their fire at a single fighter. Perhaps if there was just one fighter, but what if there were 3 or 4? You could game it and direct all of you fire at the leader (likely an ace).

So I am toying with what I call “The Law [Rule?] of Self Preservation”. It consists of two parts: First, a gunner cannot add his single fire dice to another gunners shot if there is an enemy aircraft pointed directly at him. Second, a gunner will always fire at the closest target. If two targets are of equal distance, then see the first part and if neither is pointed at you, then you can pick. After a bomber fires defensively, put a token next to it to show that it fired. Each bomber may only defensive fire once per turn.

Reasoning: Parts one and two are designed to prevent the following scenario. A B-17 element of A, B & C with A in the middle have a vic of three Fw 190s coming right at them head on. With The Law of Self Preservation, each nose gunner would shoot at the FW 190 coming right at them instead of B & C adding their one dice to A’s attack on the middle FW and hoping that the 190s coming at them aren’t as good a shot as the leader.

As far as adding a token to see who has fired, in the rules it says that gunners are considered Regular. A Regular fighter pilot will only get to shoot once during his section fire card, so … it would seem reasonable that a Regular bomber gunner would only fire once per trip through the deck.

Related, but not part of the rule is I count an aircraft as being “in a crossfire” if it is “inside” the bomber formation.

I am playtesting this rule now as part of my Ultimate 8th AF Scenario Generator I’m working on.

/r
James

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