AT gun movement restrictions

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powermonger
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AT gun movement restrictions

Post by powermonger »

Hi, anyone can help me with these ones:

1) A mand-handled AT gun moving normally would roll 2D6 and discount 1 pip per die? So, an 88mm PAK43 can move up to 10 inches?? there is no other restriction than that? Thjere is any difference between moving a Pak36 and a Pak43?

2) Can AT guns cross obstacles like infantry? I.e. discarding one die depending on the type of obstacle.

Thanks a lot!

Regards,

Diego

OldNick
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by OldNick »

"7.4.1 MANHANDLING WEAPONS
Some heavier weapons, particularly wheeled anti-tank guns or infantry guns, may be manhandled by their crews. Light guns may be moved normally with 2D6. Medium guns may be moved normally with 2D6 but with the lower dice rolled discarded. Heavy guns may be moved normally with 2D6 but with the higher dice rolled discarded. In both cases a roll of a “double” will see one D6 discarded.
Static guns, such as the 88mm Flak, may not be manhandled.
"

So, forget discarding one pip, you're discarding one die.

I would expect a Pak36 to be a light gun moving at 2d6, and a Pak43 to be a heavy gun moving at Lower of (2d6). I canlt find the source for these weights at the moment.

powermonger
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by powermonger »

Thanks a lot Nick. I have it in front of my face and could not find it.

Regards,

JimLeCat
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by JimLeCat »

Hi,

I think you have misread the rules in 7.4. The -1 pip per die is for weapons like MMGs and HMGs, and only with a reduced crew. 7.4.1 covers heavier wheeled guns. Light guns like the Pak36 move normally with 2D6. Medium guns roll 2D6 but always discard the lower roll. Heavy guns (like a Pak43) roll 2D6 and discard the higher roll. Static weapons (like the 88 Flak versions) can't move at all.

Any penalties for terrain will be on top of that, so medium and heavy guns cannot cross any kind of obstacle (you need to discard one of your dice to do so, but you've already discarded one, so discarding the second means you have no dice left to move with!). It doesn't mention light guns crossing obstacles, but personally I'd say OK with a full crew, taking a full move, if the obstacle is minor.

The rules don't classify all weapons as to size category, so Rich is leaving it to you to apply common sense. I'd say a Pak36 is light, Pak38 or 6pdr is medium, Pak40 or heavier is heavy.

Note also that the rules don't mention crew casualties. I'd probably go with something simple like -1 pip per missing crew member for medium or heavier guns and apply the rules from 7.4.1 to light guns.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Jim

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Seret
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by Seret »

I would say no to crossing an obstacle for any but the lightest of light guns.

The weights are subject to a bit of common sense and agreement. Most guns fit into a category pretty easily. For example Pak 36 and 2pdr are light guns (I'd be generous and say 45mm is, too). Pak 40, 6pdr/57mm are mediums. The 17pdr, Zis-3 and Pak 43 are heavies.

You don't usually move AT guns because if you're smart you've positioned a JOP in a good firing position, so it doesn't come up much.

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John Thomas8
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by John Thomas8 »

I'm gonna say, that at 7,407 kg (16,325 lbs) in mounted position, you get to move the 88 zero inches without it's prime mover.

OldNick
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by OldNick »

The rules say that explicitly already. No need for a house rule.

JimLeCat
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by JimLeCat »

There are a number of oddities though. Looking up the weights of various AT guns, rather than relying on memory, I get the following combat weights (in kg):-

Pak 36 327
Pak 38 830
Pak 40 1425
Pak 43 4380
2pdr 814
6pdr 1140
17pdr 3100
45mm M1937 560
Zis2 1250
Zis3 1116

So, the 2pdr (which has no wheels when set up, remember!), is nearly as heavy as a Pak38, while the Zis-3 is not only lighter than a 6pdr, but lighter than the Zis-2 as well!

Based on that, I'd probably classify the Pak36 and 45mm M1937 as light, the 2pdr as static (or at least it would take more than one phase to move it), the 17pdr and Pak43 as heavy and probably every thing else as medium...

Comments?

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courageous
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by courageous »

Good work JLC...looks good to me.

I have only seen static firing 2pdrs and support the idea of more than one phase to move, one to fit wheels and another to move.

Raf1307
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Re: AT gun movement restrictions

Post by Raf1307 »

JimLeCat wrote:There are a number of oddities though. Looking up the weights of various AT guns, rather than relying on memory, I get the following combat weights (in kg):-

Pak 36 327
Pak 38 830
Pak 40 1425
Pak 43 4380
2pdr 814
6pdr 1140
17pdr 3100
45mm M1937 560
Zis2 1250
Zis3 1116

So, the 2pdr (which has no wheels when set up, remember!), is nearly as heavy as a Pak38, while the Zis-3 is not only lighter than a 6pdr, but lighter than the Zis-2 as well!

Based on that, I'd probably classify the Pak36 and 45mm M1937 as light, the 2pdr as static (or at least it would take more than one phase to move it), the 17pdr and Pak43 as heavy and probably every thing else as medium...

Comments?


Thanks JLC that makes for a good logical approach. The remaining action would be to apply the game taxonomy of Lt/Med/Hvy to the list of guns.

Playing devil's advocate and going the other way.

If I have a suitable section or team (ie not MG's or Spt Wps) nearby that's willing to pitch in IOT move a gun into a more favourable fighting position. (assumption here is that it can be feasibly moved - ie has wheels etc...) would there be an option to improve gun mobility across different terrain (obstacles being at the extreme end of this scale)? Perhaps some bonus pips per man assisting?

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