I can see options for the Brits to win this scenario either way.
If the Germans simply sit back in a corner as you suggest and permit their JOPs to be captured then by default they lose.
If they can’t deploy they can’t possibly win.
If they deploy only some then they’ll probably get swamped then lose their JOPS. The Germans must keep their FM at 4 or above so even at a staring morale of 11 they can’t be complacent imho
Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
Moderators: Vis Bellica, Laffe
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
Where does it say that they lose by default?If the Germans simply sit back in a corner as you suggest and permit their JOPs to be captured then by default they lose
Besides, if you can not put at least 2 of the JoP on the baseline in the woods then you have really messed up the patrol phase.
I
The germans don't need to win to force the game to be replayed. In campaign terms a draw for the germans is as good as a winf they can’t deploy they can’t possibly win
Last edited by bob696 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Truscott Trotter
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Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
When initially written it was straight BK rules from the 1940 handbook. At some point Rich changed the VC so will need to ask him how that one works.
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
It’s the unwritten ‘don’t be a dick rule’!!!! FFS, if that’s the case every game can be a draw if you simply refuse to deploy and just give up your JOPs.bob696 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:26 amWhere does it say that they lose by default?If the Germans simply sit back in a corner as you suggest and permit their JOPs to be captured then by default they lose
Besides, if you can not put at least 2 of the JoP on the baseline in the woods then you have really messed up the patrol phase.
IThe germans don't need to win to force the game to be replayed. In campaign terms a draw for the germans is as good as a winf they can’t deploy they can’t possibly win
Seriously
Last edited by Trailape on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
Thanks mate!Truscott Trotter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:45 am When initially written it was straight BK rules from the 1940 handbook. At some point Rich changed the VC so will need to ask him how that one works.
Well, I and my opponent concluded it’s the ANY OF THE ABOVE option.
We’ll play it as the Brits can win by either reducing the German Moral to 4 or Exiting 2 Units across the German end of the table.
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
haha. I always find childish name calling extremely funny. I guess I am immune to it being an ex teacher.t’s the unwritten ‘don’t be a dick rule’!!!! FFS, if that’s the case every game can be a draw if you simply refuse to deploy and just give up your JOPs.
Seriously
But seriously, if you look at the scenarios 2, 4, 5 and 6 there are very clear victory conditions (even scenario 1 has a 'sub plot'), take this do that etc which both sides must react to. You can't just give up your JoP and expect a draw, so "every game" might be viewed as just a touch of an exaggeration.
funnily enough I suggested something similar in my first postWe’ll play it as the Brits can win by either reducing the German Moral to 4 or Exiting 2 Units across the German end of the table.
(edit except reducing the german moral to 4 bit but we won't go there)
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
Ha ha,… I didn’t call YOU a dick. I implied anyone who doesn’t deploy (play the game), allows their opponent to go through the motions of capturing 3 JOPs and then claims a draw because their force morale is still ‘up there’ is a ‘Dick’.
You know what they say when you assume
Being impervious to childish insults I guess is a super power from a life dealing with children constantly.
My life as a soldier has seen me dealing with soldiers constantly who have a reputation for coming up with some truely awesome insults,…
I suspect Diggers are better at it
“Except reducing the German morale to 4 but we won’t go there”
Why? What’s the issue there?
You know what they say when you assume
Being impervious to childish insults I guess is a super power from a life dealing with children constantly.
My life as a soldier has seen me dealing with soldiers constantly who have a reputation for coming up with some truely awesome insults,…
I suspect Diggers are better at it
“Except reducing the German morale to 4 but we won’t go there”
Why? What’s the issue there?
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
“Except reducing the German morale to 4 but we won’t go there”
Why? What’s the issue there?
I will paraphrase the scenario victory conditions rather than quoting them if I may:We’ll play it as the Brits can win by either reducing the German Moral to 4 ......
The losing player must withdraw from the table either by choice or forced to by a reduction of force moral to 0. However, to 'win' the other players force moral must be 3 or greater (over 4 is never mentioned). So, if one player withdraws but the other players force moral is only a 2 then it ends up as a draw..... effectively a win for the germans.
I would prefer a modified victory condition along the lines of..... Victory conditions are as stated for the BK scenario, however, if the victors Force moral has dropped to 2 or less they are forced to withdraw and the game is replayed if this is the first time this scenario has been played.
(Normal BK victory is 2 units off for the attacker or the defenders force moral is reduced to zero. For the defender it is gaining 2 coc dice or reducing the attackers force moral to zero)
BK is a great scenario as it is (probably my favourite of all the scenarios) and it is a shame to spoil it
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
I draw your attention to the UMPIRES NOTES on the second to last page (page 31)bob696 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:25 pm“Except reducing the German morale to 4 but we won’t go there”
Why? What’s the issue there?I will paraphrase the scenario victory conditions rather than quoting them if I may:We’ll play it as the Brits can win by either reducing the German Moral to 4 ......
The losing player must withdraw from the table either by choice or forced to by a reduction of force moral to 0. However, to 'win' the other players force moral must be 3 or greater (over 4 is never mentioned).
Scenario 3
“The German position here represents the outpost line. The Germans will withdraw from this position after one game if defeated, or if they win the scenario but their Force Morale is reduced to 4 or less. They will always withdraw from this position after two games, whether they win or lose”.
Clearly reducing the German morale to 4 or less IS mentioned.
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER
Re: Capturing Caesars Camp - New PSC
You are correct, my apologies. That makes 2 sets of victory conditions (campaign wise) and another implied.Clearly reducing the German morale to 4 or less IS mentioned.
So, if I have this right in the first game:
The germans lose and withdraw if they win with a force moral of 4 or less
The british lose and withdraw if they win with a force moral of 2 or less
Game 2 the germans withdraw and the british win whatever the result on the table