Hi all
The rules state that you cannot shoot through your own troops/units.
But can you shoot through one enemy unit to hit another enemy unit behind it ?
Eg. I want to shoot at an enemy AT-gun, but an infantry unit is in the way of LOS. Can the AT gun be targeted
or
I want to move forward with my infantry walking behind/beside my tank, using it as cover. Can the infantry be targeted if the tank is intervening LOS.
If not solid in the rules, how do you guys play it ??
It seems cheesy to let eg. two guys from a japanese mortar squad be out of cover to observe and gain Enemy-within-LOS, while the rest of the squad is hiding behind eg a wall to reduce losses if taking fire.
But is it legal acc to the rules ?
regards
Peter
Screening a unit with another unit
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Screening a unit with another unit
No not unless the AT gun is within 4" of the intervening infantry.
Think about the real life situation
"Guys just ignore those infantry shooting at you and killing you and shoot at the AT gun behind them?"
Tank can block LOF but in practise its extremely hard to block LOF to all you men from all angles unless it is a very big tank or very few men.
As for the last example it is wrong as the weapons need LOS not just any team member.
Hope that helps?
Think about the real life situation
"Guys just ignore those infantry shooting at you and killing you and shoot at the AT gun behind them?"
Tank can block LOF but in practise its extremely hard to block LOF to all you men from all angles unless it is a very big tank or very few men.
As for the last example it is wrong as the weapons need LOS not just any team member.
Hope that helps?
Re: Screening a unit with another unit
But the tank would ignore the screening infantry and shoot at the AT gun.
Re: Screening a unit with another unit
Just play the period...
Re: Screening a unit with another unit
Hi Peter,
See section 8.2 first paragraph. Although you assess firing on a Team basis, the actual rule is that firing is undertaken by individual figures who require line of sight to their target. Enemy figures will block that LOS but theoretically some troops might have LOS to the AT gun and could fire on it. It’s unlikely to be effective though. However, in my experience most players would consider the fire blocked rather than waste time working out individual lines of sight. It also usually more consistent with playing the period as TT suggests.
In the case of tanks they can shelter accompanying infantry though in practice as TT says that cover may be limited. Tanks can fire their main gun or coaxial machine gun over the heads of infantry since they are higher but hull MGs would often be blocked.
John
See section 8.2 first paragraph. Although you assess firing on a Team basis, the actual rule is that firing is undertaken by individual figures who require line of sight to their target. Enemy figures will block that LOS but theoretically some troops might have LOS to the AT gun and could fire on it. It’s unlikely to be effective though. However, in my experience most players would consider the fire blocked rather than waste time working out individual lines of sight. It also usually more consistent with playing the period as TT suggests.
In the case of tanks they can shelter accompanying infantry though in practice as TT says that cover may be limited. Tanks can fire their main gun or coaxial machine gun over the heads of infantry since they are higher but hull MGs would often be blocked.
John
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Screening a unit with another unit
You could always use the mortars to fire at the AT gun
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Levi the Ox
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Re: Screening a unit with another unit
I don't know if we've even ever had it come up? At least not where the second unit was far enough away that small arms hits wouldn't automatically be shared between the two as per usual, anyway. The rules make no mention of units blocking LoS, only preventing fire if they are friendly. I'd probably allow the more distant unit to be targeted but share hits between each unit in the line of fire.
Unless you're talking about a literal crowd, infantry aren't going to be dense enough to block LoS. Our figures are much more static than the soldiers they represent, and usually larger in proportion to the ground scale. If you are up against a literal crowd, you've run up against the limitations of the system not being designed to handle firing at close order infantry because such a formation is functionally suicidal in the period the rules represent, and I'd suggest re-rolling "no effect" results.
Sizable vehicles would block LoS and units can advance behind them, depending on the angles this could block LoS altogether or only grant cover to the unit.
As to a squad firing, the to-hit rolls for each weapon will be based on that figure or weapon crew's position, so mortars without LoS don't get any benefit for their squadmates being in LoS, and other troops won't be able to fire at all.
Unless you're talking about a literal crowd, infantry aren't going to be dense enough to block LoS. Our figures are much more static than the soldiers they represent, and usually larger in proportion to the ground scale. If you are up against a literal crowd, you've run up against the limitations of the system not being designed to handle firing at close order infantry because such a formation is functionally suicidal in the period the rules represent, and I'd suggest re-rolling "no effect" results.
Sizable vehicles would block LoS and units can advance behind them, depending on the angles this could block LoS altogether or only grant cover to the unit.
As to a squad firing, the to-hit rolls for each weapon will be based on that figure or weapon crew's position, so mortars without LoS don't get any benefit for their squadmates being in LoS, and other troops won't be able to fire at all.
Re: Screening a unit with another unit
My last question re mortar line of sight is a kind of repost i asked earlier where i asked if a japanese mortar squad required LOS from the individual mortars or only part of the squad. The " ruling" was if only part of the squad could see the target it was LOS, disregarding all the mortars didnt have LOS
From Len Tracey:
In response to the questions, here's my two bobs worth:
1. The Japanese GD Squad fires as a squad, so individual GD teams cannot fire separately. Therefore, providing one member of the squad can see the target, the GD squad counts as being at Close Range when firing their GD.
And further from me: If not on squad basis this would also mean that a 60mm mortar draws LOS from the weapon ??
regards
Peter
From Len Tracey:
In response to the questions, here's my two bobs worth:
1. The Japanese GD Squad fires as a squad, so individual GD teams cannot fire separately. Therefore, providing one member of the squad can see the target, the GD squad counts as being at Close Range when firing their GD.
And further from me: If not on squad basis this would also mean that a 60mm mortar draws LOS from the weapon ??
regards
Peter
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Screening a unit with another unit
Sorry but I disagree with Len on this one.
It makes the rule of LOS pointless if one member if the squad counts for all the weapons of the squad.
LoS is measured from the weapon to the target IMO.
It makes the rule of LOS pointless if one member if the squad counts for all the weapons of the squad.
LoS is measured from the weapon to the target IMO.
Re: Screening a unit with another unit
And also when "playing the period", the knee mortar required line of sight so thats the proper way to play it.
The other thing with screening troops with other troops occured during the last phases of a game:
Two squads, one a japanese the other a US marines was in front of each other, both depleted and close to breaking.
The active player fired with his depleted squad and next deployed a fresh squad more than 4" in front of the depleted squad and fired with the deployed squad.
In the next phase the opponent would like to fire on the depleted squad , but now there is a fresh squad in the way, more than 4" to the squad it is screening.
I know none of us are cheasy, but this is a tempting situation deciding the game.
The other thing with screening troops with other troops occured during the last phases of a game:
Two squads, one a japanese the other a US marines was in front of each other, both depleted and close to breaking.
The active player fired with his depleted squad and next deployed a fresh squad more than 4" in front of the depleted squad and fired with the deployed squad.
In the next phase the opponent would like to fire on the depleted squad , but now there is a fresh squad in the way, more than 4" to the squad it is screening.
I know none of us are cheasy, but this is a tempting situation deciding the game.