How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Yes if you look at the diagram on p 32 if the firing unit were spaced out slightly differently then most would get to fire even by the strict interpretation of the rules as stated by John above.

We just get slightly lazy and do not check every second rank mans LOS separately as to do so would slow the game down, not only for that measurement but that a player moving would then want to rearrange every man and cross check his potential LOS to optimise his chances of firing with the second rank.

So Rule of Two!

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Capt Fortier
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Capt Fortier »

Isn't the "Rule of Two" something to do with how many Sith Lords there can be - one to have the power, and one to crave it. (I think ISO-fever setting in...)
Capt Fortier

“Un optimiste, c'est un homme qui plante deux glands et qui s'achète un hamac.” - Jean de Lattre de Tassigny

Contrarius
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Contrarius »

Advancing in an arrowhead formation does seem like a clever way to bring maximum firepower to bear, providing you expect it to come from the front. Not so good when you are engaged from one side, and then all the men in one blade of the arrowhead can’t fire.

My key question though was, what is a QUICK METHOD of reckoning how many men can fire in a MATURE firefight, that is once the rear rankers and stragglers have been brought up? One shooter per 2cm of frontage seems to be a good workable figure. Of course if you can get the arrowhead to work in your favour you may be able to improve on that.

Levi the Ox
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Levi the Ox »

Contrarius wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:17 pm
You say “Don’t overlap your bases”. That’s just not practical with an 18-man Polish squad. You have to move doubled or trebled or you unit will extend over one and a half feet! It’s impossible to deploy from a deployment point into such a line as you’d have to form a semi circle of six inches in radius. Any manoeuvre at all you do causes some men to lag behind, and moving them up by ordinary moves strictly by the rules will take an eternity.

I would disagree that micro-moves are not part of the rules, they are just a way of overcoming the low-res nature of the rules in some parts, a way of fine-tuning and adding more detail.
Completely agree that units are usually not going to be able to easily move in the formation they most want to fight in, especially with the larger squads of early-war armies. This seems to be more of a feature than a bug, as it reflects the difficulty of controlling larger groups (as a trade-off for their greater firepower and durability).

What exactly are you thinking of when you refer to "mirco-moves"? When you activate, you could certainly declare its current front line as its destination, so that the only figures to actually change position on the table would be those stragglers moving up to the front line, allowing you to rearrange the formation (this is what I was describing in my initial post). That still requires the activation of the whole unit, though, who will all count as moving because the team/squad is activated all together.
Archdukek wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:38 am
The 2” rule for a clear fire lane does not apply to members of the same Team (see FAQ) but each figure having Line of sight still matters.
...huh. That partially contradicts (overrules?) the rulebook diagram. Interesting.
Contrarius wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:58 am
My key question though was, what is a QUICK METHOD of reckoning how many men can fire in a MATURE firefight, that is once the rear rankers and stragglers have been brought up? One shooter per 2cm of frontage seems to be a good workable figure. Of course if you can get the arrowhead to work in your favour you may be able to improve on that.
I think most people essentially eyeball it, as you observed earlier (some being more or less strict about it). The position of the figures on the table dictates what is possible, not some formula. That being said, if your bases are ~2cm, then you will probably have a figure able to fire for every 2cm of frontage, as you describe, because that is how much space they will need to see clearly.

Munin
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Munin »

I'm firmly in the "'micro moves' are not a thing" camp. The large, early war squads are unwieldy to command and bring into a firing line. If you just say, "eh, good enough" and let an entire blob of infantrymen in the same squad fire, then suddenly the 20-man Italian platoons become the rock-stars of WW2, because they can throw out a huge amount of firepower. But we know that this was not actually the case and that there's a reason that squads generally got smaller as the war went on, and effective coordination of fire was an important factor.

Our general rule is that if there's a 2" or greater gap (published rule) or if more than half of a figure's forward arc of fire is clear (i.e. 90 degrees, house rule) it can fire. Thus, you can get a "staggered line" firing to try to pack a few more men in behind an obstacle or what have you.

But apart from that, if a trooper's line of fire is obscured, he cannot fire. Part of your command challenge, then, is in working to get your men on the firing line and able to bring their weapons to bear. Because moving hampers shooting, this can make a unit not 100% effective until it sorts itself out - UNLESS you roll a 3, in which case your sqaud NCO can use 1 CI to form an ad-hoc team (i.e. "all you jerks in the back," see section 4.5.7) and give them a command to move (or move and fire at half effectiveness depending on how far they have to go) and one CI to have the stationary troops fire at full effect. And because the ad-hoc team will (almost certainly) end within 4" of the remaining "base of fire" team, it will automatically "rejoin" the squad at the end of the phase. This represents the JL taking an active hand in coordinating the movement and fire of the troops under his command.

This seems perfectly realistic, reasonable, and period-flavored to me, and reflects the difficulties of coordinating the movement and fire of large squads.

On the plus side, we allow the controlling player to remove models from the rear of the unit as casualties, which represents men stepping up into the gaps in the firing line left as casualties fall out or are dragged back out of immediate danger.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

we allow the controlling player to remove models from the rear of the unit as casualties
I am becoming an expert in this :lol:

George2591
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by George2591 »

What if you get an 8” move but only move 6” to reorder a firing line?

Peter
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Peter »

Since the order is "reorder line" that is successful.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

George2591 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:47 am
What if you get an 8” move but only move 6” to reorder a firing line?
You have to move the distance of the dice, but nothing says it has be in a straight line so I see no problem with that as long as some end up 8" forwards and all move 8"

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john de terre neuve
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Re: How many of my squad can fire, or how many figs per cm of front?

Post by john de terre neuve »

I have played a lot of CoC with a lot of different players. I agree that basing distorts a realistic delineation of the actual position. Like Mark, I play with 20 mm figures on 20 mm bases. Like John, we have come to agree that a double staggered line allows all figures with LOS to fire.

John

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