Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

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Eclaireur
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by Eclaireur »

Munin - is it not the product of Mass X Velocity times the product of Mass X Velocity over two ?
EC

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Seret
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by Seret »

Eclaireur wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:31 pm
Munin - is it not the product of Mass X Velocity times the product of Mass X Velocity over two ?
EC
It the mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity. So doubling the velocity increases kinetic energy by 4. Increasing it sixfold increases kinetic energy by 36 times.

That's a big part of how shaped charges work. There are also some other really important effects, though. The speed of sound in steel is about 6000m/s. Even very fast modern sabots don't move anywhere near that speed. What that means is that when a sabot hits the armour, the stress waves from the impact are able to propagate through the armour and it's able to dissipate some of the impactor's energy through the armour deforming plastically. When armour is hit by a shaped charge it behaves differently, the tip of the jet moves faster than the speed of sound, meaning it moves faster than the stress waves can move through the metal. So the armour isn't able to "spread the load" in the same way.

Upshot of this is that shaped charges concentrate all their energy into one tiny spot. KE weapons affect a larger area. You can see the difference on this old tank turret:
Image

Hits marked 1 and 2 are from a 100mm tank gun firing APHE, 3 is a penetrating hit from a shaped charge (83mm 55 S 55 rocket). You can see that the 100mm projectiles have moved metal over many times the diameter of the round. That's inefficient. The smaller 83mm HEAT shot has concentrated everything into one tiny spot, smaller than it's own diameter in fact. That's a very efficient way to penetrate armour.

Notice the large amounts of smudgy plastic deformation around the APHE hits, and the very neat hole drilled by the shaped charge. All that metal moved around on the outside of the armour looks impressive but it really represents wasted energy. You don't want big splashes like that on the outside, you want all your energy transferred to the inside as cleanly as possible.

9 Incidentally is a gun-calibre HEAT-FS round and shows a pretty bad overmatch of that poor old T-54 turret. You wouldn't want to be anywhere in that fighting compartment...

gcoops
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by gcoops »

Interesting picture. Where is that?

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Seret
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

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Eclaireur
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by Eclaireur »

Seret,
good news and bad news - I am retreating from my view that those German hand held anti-tank weapons are too powerful, but not because of your interesting explanations!
I am five games in to the Bremen campaign during which my opponent has fired about six panzershreck rounds and eight or nine panzerfausts at my British armour without destroying any of it. Some of this is on the luck of the dice; one of panzerschrek strikes generated six hits ... and I the managed saves with all six of my armour dice. By rights that tank should have been a goner, but even if he had knocked it out, I would accept that one or two KOs for that number of rounds fired was not unreasonable. Of course my opponent thinks CoC is hopelessly biased towards tanks now!
EC

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Welcome to the cunning and intriguing world of CoC dice.....its not what it seems! 😉

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Are Panzerschrecks too powerful?

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften »

I refer the honourable(???) gentlemen to my strap-line......
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

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