Official CoCulator

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Iorwerth
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Iorwerth » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:25 am

The lack of a +1 for an AFV with just a Hull MG puzzles me. What is the reasoning for this? When combined with a co-axial it is worth an extra +1, so why does it not add +1 if it is the only MG on the AFV? On its own it can be fired with a command point, just like the co-axial, but the Hull MG has the advantage of being able to fire alongside the main gun, which the co-axial cannot. The Hull MG may have a narrower field of fire, but even so I don't understand the reasoning behind not making it a +1 a Hull MG.

Neal Smith
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Neal Smith » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:01 pm

Last I heard, it was 0/+1/+2 because I had been using -1/0/+1. I'm sure it's in this thread... somewhere...

As to reasoning for what's included in the CoCulator, you'll have to ask Rich.

Here's the link: https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... low#p21951

Munin
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Munin » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:21 pm

A hull-mounted MG can't fire over the heads of infantry to the tank's front, while a co-ax can. Just a thought.

Iorwerth
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Iorwerth » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:44 pm

On the speed modifier. On page 18 of this thread, Rich had fast as +1:
Richard wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:51 am
......
Armour: 0 (I take Jdg's point about a shield, but it isn't in the CoCulator as stands)
AT: 4 (this doesn't change with multiple barrels)
HE: 12 (6 is the normal 20mm cannon and we add +2 per additional barrel, 6+2+2+2 = 12) (jdg +3 is IABSM)
Secondary armament: 0
Speed: +1 (fast)
Advantages: -1 Open body so susceptible to grenade attack)

Total 15, so List 5.

M3 Quad is a bit different

Armour: 3 (I am considering dropping this to 2 in the new Master Armour table as it is a bit too generous, but let's keep it as stands)
AP: 2
HE: 16 (HE is actually "anti-infantry", again the base of 10 for the 0.50 is increased by 6 for the three additional barrels)
Secondary armament: 0
Speed: +1 (Fast)
Advantages: 0 (None, this is not a flat backed open vehicle but has a proper operator's position which is protects)

Total: 22 = List 7

Hope that helps

Rich
Here he is making fast only a +1.

https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... &start=170

Neal Smith
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Neal Smith » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:33 pm

I guess we need a ruling? That would change a few things back to what they were before... :)

Iorwerth
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Iorwerth » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:41 pm

A ruling on that, as well as Hull MG would be good :)

sackatatties
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by sackatatties » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:33 am

I'm fairly sure the later CoCulator is the one without the speed mods (although the classification of what speed is slow/fast is stated). Whether it's an oversight or not, I cant say.

For me a fast tank is just one that dies faster at the CoC groundscale .... so paying extra for speed is a bit pointless imho. Anyway as you say - one for Rich!

Iorwerth
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Iorwerth » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:49 am

sackatatties wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:33 am

For me a fast tank is just one that dies faster at the CoC groundscale .... so paying extra for speed is a bit pointless imho. Anyway as you say - one for Rich!
:D

All the other modifiers have a direct impact on dealing damage or avoiding damage. Speed strikes me similar to the kind of bonus for fast or slow turrets - useful, but not worth an increase in points with its potential to increase the support level of the AFV.

I wonder what point system was used in the new handbook?

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Seret
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Seret » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:53 am

I think speed is definitely useful. With a fast tank the absolute worst you can roll for movement is 9". If you need to get out of trouble that's really handy. Say you've deployed at your entry point and then the enemy does the typical thing and slaps an AT gun down at the other end of the road, being able to get yourself off the road and out of LOS is very handy.
Iorwerth wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:49 am
All the other modifiers have a direct impact on dealing damage or avoiding damage.
I'd say movement can be used for both of those. Getting your vehicle to the right part of the table so that it can do its job and not die is kind of handy. Doubly so for transports, or if you're playing a probe mission, where that move stat could be a game winner. Wheeled recce vehicle in a probe game? Yes, please!

Iorwerth
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Re: Official CoCulator

Post by Iorwerth » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:52 pm

A few things I found buried in the previous posts which are missing from the CoCulator notes:

1. Command Dice Modifier
6 Command dice: +2
4 Dice: -2

Rich said:

("-2 for going down to four dice. +2 for going up to six dice. It does indeed have a big effect.")

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1058&sid=47978efdb ... &start=140


2. Less than 4 HE AFVs

When determining AFV cost if HE is less than 4, and the AFV has a MG, then use 4 as the HE number.

Rich Says:

("Where an AFV has a man gun with an HE value of 4 or more we count that HE value. Where an AFV has a main gun with an HE value of 3 or less but has a MG, or where the AFV's main weapon is an MG we count that as an HE rating of 4. Why? Well, HE actually means "anti-infantry armament". HE reduces cover so is considered to be about 1/3 more effective then small arms fire, so that means an MG with 6D6 is roughly as effective as HE with 4D6. ")

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1058&sid=47978efdb ... b&start=70


3. Multiple Barrels

When an autocannon has multiple barrels, each additional barrel adds +2 to the base 6 HE of an autocannon (probably already figured into the HE values on the Arsenal, but might be useful for others to know if they are doing their own vehicles).

Rich said:

("SdKfz 7 with the quad 20mm is......
AT: 4 (this doesn't change with multiple barrels)
HE: 12 (6 is the normal 20mm cannon and we add +2 per additional barrel, 6+2+2+2 = 12)" )

A .50 call has a base of 10 HE, and is increased by +2 per barrel

Rich said:
("M3 Quad is a bit different
......
HE: 16 (HE is actually "anti-infantry", again the base of 10 for the 0.50 is increased by 6 for the three additional barrels)
Secondary armament: 0")

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1058&sid=47978efdb ... &start=170

4.Speed
It is only the one post in this thread where Rich says fast is +1, all the other times when he mentions it he says +2 for fast, +1 for average.

Personally, I still think speed should be ignored, but the CA is about official costs, so that is neither here nor there. Will be good when we get an official answer, as the speed modifier for a fair number of AFVs can be the difference between one support level and another, and until sorted it is impossible to know which is correct.

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