Deploy and Activate?

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Archdukek
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Archdukek »

They've been there since before the game started. That's why your patrol marker got locked down - your scouts couldn't get past them.

John
whoa mohamed
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by whoa mohamed »

All terrain no matter how flat and empty it appears has folds dips and other features that make it possible to hide a unit in ...I totaly get it Your scouts have detected an enemy presence but not exact locations as you move forward its easy to run into or be engaged by units you failed to spot...That makes perfect sense to me. They were in fact already there due to a fold or dip I just did not see them...Since my patrol marker was locked it should be warning to use bounding overwatch and move tacticaly till I make contact....Mikey
Archdukek
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Archdukek »

Exactly Mikey.
Additionally you might want to detach a scout team from your section and push them forward towards the jump off point which should force the enemy to deploy, thus revealing the previously hidden troops, or risk losing the use of the jump off point altogether.
John
GavinP
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by GavinP »

But you've presumably no issues with troops firing on deployed troops in perfect concealment and who haven't fired or moved??

With no spotting rules as such in these rules, there are going to be compromises and fudges. I don't like it any more than you. Perhaps a negative dice modifier for deploying into close combat is in order within the CC mechanics?
Archdukek
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Archdukek »

I don't believe there is such a thing as perfect concealment on the battlefield. Certainly not at the distances we are considering in a Chain of Command game.
Under the rules once troops are deployed on table they become a potential target if your opponent has line of sight to them.However, if it really bothers you, in the circumstances you describe I would be happy to treat any initial fire as covering fire.
As for deploying into close combat, you could treat the situation as equivalent to the newly deployed troops having moved 1 D6, but personally I wouldn't bother.
sunjester
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by sunjester »

Reading some of this thread makes me glad I play with reasonable people, so we can discuss any potential loopholes and agree to ignore any minor points in the rules that might allow unrealistic situations. All rules can be exploited by rules lawyers if they try hard enough, unless the rules are written by rules lawyers, DBM anyone?
If you are playing Lardie rules with someone who is saying "Ahh, but the exact wording of the rules as written means..." and proceeds to justify some totally cheesy gamesmanship, you should probably stop playing with them.

Graham
Alan Charlesworth
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Alan Charlesworth »

It seems to me that until Richard clarifies what was intended by the wording in the rules you can't say what is reasonable and what is rules lawyering. This mechanic is a an abstraction that has not been seen in any previous Lardy rules. Given its relatively unusual nature I think it is difficult to logically work out the intention from first principles.
richard
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by richard »

I am not entirely clear what I should be clarifying here, so if I end up clarifying the wrong thing then do let me know.

1. Jump-Off points represent an area where your enemy has identified that you have, or had, troops.
2. Jump-Off points represent a point to which you can deploy your men quickly and safely. Even if this means you cross a river without getting your feet wet - clearly somebody found a small boat. Or maybe an unmarked ford.

I actually feel that troops deploying from a Jump-Off marker should have a general advantage. They represent troops who are perfectly under your control, indeed perfectly under your control for the last time, as once deployed they are subject to the vagaries of the battlefield. So...

a) Units deploying and firing are actually conducting an "ambush". By which I mean they have seen you moving up and they appear to fire on you at full effect. Have you ever read a first hand account of war where this didn't happen?

b) Units deploying straight into close combat from a Jump Off point are also ambushing you. They have waited until you are nearly upon them and then leapt out to surprise you. You don't get a bonus for your enemy moving x number of dice because they have surprised you. However, don't forget that by waiting until that last moment they have risked you getting to within 4" of their jump off point and shutting it down.

In broad terms my feeling is this,. You knew where the enemy had been spotted by your patrols (i.e. in the area of the jump-off point) so don't be surprised when they enemy ARE indeed there.

This also comes down to the basic principles within the game. You need to find your enemy before you do anything else. If you can oblige him to deploy all of his troops onto the table you can then act with impunity (although has he taken an additional squad as his support option?).

I actually see no fudges in that at all, just basic tactical principles (find, fix, flank and finish) backed up by historical precedent for enemys appearing "as if from nowhere".

Now tell me I answered the wrong question...

Rich
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Seems pretty clear to me thanks Richard. The background thinking also meshes with the playing one dice, and seeing the result before allocating/playing the next dice principle.
Alan Charlesworth
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Re: Deploy and Activate?

Post by Alan Charlesworth »

Thanks Rich.

I think there was an element of the old dilemma:

1. Do the rules really mean what they say? If you do what they say some will say you are a rules lawyer.

2. Do you apply common sense and do what you think the rules actualy meant rather than what they said. Now you are up against the fact that two people will often have two different ideas as to what is common sense.

The only thing that your post leaves hanging for me is confirmation that a a unit can deploy behind the enemy? Which falls under point 1 above.
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