1944 Free French Forces

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lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

Yes , the cal.50 was not necessarily with the AT squad . These informations are from Paul GAUJAC , the one who wrote the articles in Steelmsters . These are the best sources for French mecz infantry . And as he wrote , it's theoretical. But at least , we have a start . As I'm not in France with my documents , could you tell me where you saw that the platoon leader was with the mortar squad ? I thought that his position was with the Voltigeurs squad , as this squad was the leading one and was commanded by an indigenous NCO .
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Emilio
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by Emilio »

Hi Lebedo

Can you read spanish? This document is the organization for the 9eme compagnie RMT. It shows the position of officers and NCO´s:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KtwYa ... puoLaRnAVc

The platoon leader travels in the first halftrack. And the second in charge in another halftrack. The first halftrack carries the mortar:

Image

Image

Image

Don´t thrust the images for MG´s allocation, they are wrong. You can check it in photos.

The images are from this book:

Image

And in this document you can find the recollections from capitaine Dronne, and shows the weapons allocated to 9eme compagnie:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19SwEOJ ... sp=sharing

I hope that these are useful to you.

Emilio.
lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

Thanks , I'll take a look and use them.
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Seret
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by Seret »

lebedo wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:42 pm In game terms, that could be :
1 Mortar squad : 1 60mm mortar squad, 4 crew with JL
1 Antitank squad : 1 JL, SL, rifle
1 Antitank team : 57mm ATG with JL and 4 crew
1 Rifle team : 3 riflemen , rifle
1 Voltigeurs squad : 1 JL, SL, SMG
Assault team : 3 riflemen, SMG
Fire team : 4 riflemen , rifle
2 Mitrailleurs-voltigeurs squads : 1 JL, SL, rifle
Fire team : 1 cal.30 lmg, 2 crew
Manoeuver team : 4 riflemen, rifle

The antitank and mortar squads can use their lmg once dismounted , with a crew of 2 , but they can't use at the same time the mortar or the ATG.
If the cal.30 lmg is fielded , the ATG squad will be divided between a fireteam ( 1 cal.30 lmg with a crew of 2 , JL, 2 riflemen with rifles ) and a manoeuver team of 3 ,1 smg and 2 rifles ).
For the mortar squad , it will be 1 cal.30 lmg with a crew of 2,JL, 2 riflemen with rifle.
Each squad can field a bazooka team , but at the cost of 2 of its riflemen who become the crew.
I think you've got a bit carried away with the leaders there. In CoC we don't represent both the squad leader and the 2ic, and the leader in charge of a single squad will always be a JL, SLs are officers and SNCOs in platoon HQ.

I would suggest something more like:

Platoon HQ:
Platoon CO: SL
Platoon 2ic: SL
60mm Mortar with 4 crew

AT squad:
Either: 57mm AT Gun with 4 crew and JL
Or:
  • JL
  • MG team: M1919 LMG (2 crew), 2 riflemen
  • Rifle team: 2 riflemen, 1 man with SMG
1x Rifle Squad:
  • JL w/SMG
  • Rifle team: 4 riflemen
  • Assault team: 4 men with SMG
2x MG Squads, each:
  • JL
  • M1919 LMG with 2 crew
  • 4 riflemen
I've assumed above that the assistant drivers are still with the vehicles providing security, not going forward to fight. Any squad should be able to include bazookas, but if you want additional guns like the 50cal I'd suggest keeping that on the support list as it's a beast.
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Arlequín
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by Arlequín »

Yes it's a useful point Seret makes; a JL is a role and not a rank.

There may be 'chosen men', lance-corporals, corporals, or even sergeants, in charge of teams or small groups of men, but a JL is a section/squad leader of two or more small groups or teams, or a single large group.

From a practical point of view, how many JLs will you be able to activate with five dice, bearing in mind you need a natural or composite '3' to activate a JL?

Typically you might be able to activate two in a phase, very rarely and at the detriment to all else, you might manage to activate three. They increase the Force Rating by just being there, which will probably rob you of one or more support assets in their stead.
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Emilio
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by Emilio »

I made myself a list months ago. Something like this:

SECTION DE COMBAT HQ:
Senior leader with carbine
2nd senior leader with carbine
Bazooka team, 2 crew

GROUPE DE MORTIER:
60mm mortar with 5 crew

GROUPE DE MITRALLEURS-VOLTIGUEURS:
Junior leader with smg

Demigroupe de mitralleurs:
1 LMG 1914 A4 with 3 crew
Demigroupe de voltigueurs:
5 men with Garand
1 man with SMG

GROUPE DE MITRALLEURS-VOLTIGUEURS:
Idem.

GROUPE DE VOLTIGUEURS:
Junior leader with SMG.

Demigroupe de voltigueurs:
4 men with Garand

Demigroupe de voltigueurs:
4 men with Garand
1 man with SMG

GROUPE DE ANTICHAR:
Junior leader with carbine.
57mm AT gun with 5 crew
Bazooka team 2 crew.

This gives a force rating of +5. I understand that is very weapons heavy. Without the second bazooka it will be a rating of +4.
I didn´t take out the driver and asistant driver, but probably it would be better leave them in the vehicles. In the 9 compagnie, the ASL remained in the halftrack to give support with the MG. The squad leader take the other men to fight on foot.
lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

Yes , I have to admit that there is too much leaders. To my thinking, Seret's list is the one which mixes the best game necesities and history . For the Garand, while the 2nd armored division seems to have perceived Garand, it was not the case for the rest of the french army which, in July 1944 had perceived near 800 of these rifles . 70% of the rifles used by the french army were Lee enfield , the remaining third
were Springfield.
lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

By the way , big thanks to all of you!!!
The rifle platoon , or fusiliers -voltigeurs comprised 1hq and 3 squads.
Platoon hq was lead by an officer who had a sergeant as second in command. 2 other nco's were in the hq:1 sergeant and 1 corporal. They were "at disposal" , meaning that they were sent where needed, generally to replace a loss. 2 riflemen were in the hq squad too.
Squads 1 To 3 were lead by a sergeant , assisted by a corporal. The sgt had a rifle and the corporal had a smg.
The fireteam(fusiliers) was made of 3 men, 1 was the gunner, the second the loader and the third an ammo bearer. While the gunner manned a BAR or fm24/29, the two other had rifles.
The assault team(voltigeurs) was built around the corporal -voltigeur, armed with a rifle, 1grenadier -voltigeur with a rifle grenade launcher and 6 voltigeurs,riflemen armed with a rifle.
So , in game terms,it coule ne :
Hq:SL, carbine, platoon leader
SL, carbine, assistant
2 riflemen . The other 2 JL could be represented either by a support or by a national characteristic allowing the french player to replace a nco casualty.
Squads 1 To 3, each : JL, rifle , squad leader.
Fireteam: BAR, 2 crew, 1 rifleman with rifle
Manoeuver team :7 riflemen and 1grenade launcher with the "oui corporal" special rule OR 1 JL with rifle, 6riflemen with rifle and 1grenade launcher.
lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

Ok , so according to seret 's list , which is the closest to mine, I come with the following list :
Platoon hq :
SL with smg , platoon leader,10 points
SI , assistant, smg,10 points
60mm mortar , crew of 4, 4 points
Total=24 points

Rifle squad:
JL, smg,
3 riflemen,smg
4 riflemen,rifle
Total=17points

ANTITANK squad:
JL,rifle,
57mm ATG,crew of 4,
3 riflemen, 1 smg and 2 rifles
Total=19 points

2 MG squads,each :
JL, rifle,
LMG,beltfed,crew of 2,
4 riflemen,rifle
Total=16 points

Total for the platoon is 92 points, giving a force rating of+1

Is it correct?
lebedo
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Re: 1944 Free French Forces

Post by lebedo »

Ok, so after reading and re-reading the articles Mr Gaujac wrote in Steelmasters about the Zouaves Portés and comparing them with pics and TOE's from the RMT, I came to the conclusion that the RMT and the ZOUAVES didn't have the same organisation; the 2nd armored division was part of American forces and so was armed as the doughboys were. They had M1 Garand. The 1st armored division was part of the French army and they had a slightly different armament: no Garand but bolt-action rifles, no carbines but smg's.
It looks like the RMT had platoon leaders in the 60mm halftrack (see Emilio's plates and the forum " La Guitoune II") but the cal.50 was with his assistant. If you compare Emilio's plate and the one depicted in "La Guitoune", you will see that :
- Don Quichotte is a 60mm mortar HT and has the platoon leader;
- Cap Serrat and Les Pingouins both carry the Mitrailleurs-voltigeurs, but Serrat is armed with the Cal.50 and has the platoon leader assistant;
- Madrid carries the Voltigeurs squad;
- Guernica tows the 57mm ATG;
While it is obvious that the mortar, the ATG and the mitrailleurs squads were in M5 HT, the question is : were the voltigeurs in an M9 HT?
The Zouaves used the M9 as the platoon leader HT, and so it carries the Cal.50. That's what all the pics show.
Mr Gaujac depicted on a plate showing the different squads the Cal.50 with the ATG squad. It's not a mistake. That's where the cal.50 was under the 1942 organisation, with the platoon leader. French probably simply changed the position of the platoon leader and his status weapon. One must remember that this weapon was the platoon leader weapon. So it makes sense to move it with the leader.
The Steelmasters's articles show several plates depicting platoons of Zouaves:
- the 3rd plt/1st co/1st btn had 4 M5 HT, numbered 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th vehicles;
- the 1st pltn/ 2nd co/ 1st btn had 4 M5, numbered the same ( 212,213,214 and 215);
- the 3rd pltn/ 2nd co/ 3rd btn was not different (232,233,234 and 235). This plate also shows the Platoon leader M9 HT numbered 231, so the 1st vehicle.
The ATG was towed by an M5 and so were the mortar and the mitrailleurs-voltigeurs (there is a pic showing them in one of the articles);
So we might think that the M9 was carrying the platoon ldr and the voltigeurs squad. If we compare this with the 3rd platoon/ 2nd co/3rd btn of Zouaves, that would give us:
- 231, M9 HT, Pltn ldr+voltigeurs;
- 232 and 233, M5 HT with mitrailleurs-voltigeurs;
- 234, M5 HT with the ATG;
- 235, M5 HT with the mortar.
Now if we look at the TOE of the 2nd and 3rd co's of the 1st btn of Zouaves ( articles from Mr Gaujac, Steelmasters, relating the battles of Anse and Villefranche in September 1944) we can see that the lead and the second vehicles were the ones with the Mitrailleurs squads, the third vehicle was the voltigeurs's one, the fourth carried the ATG and the 5th carried the mortar. So the platoon leader was in the middle of his platoon.
In November 1944, a report about the use of the armored infantry explains this:
- Once on foot, the co is reduced to 65% of its manpower, so 120 men of whom only 50 voltigeurs;
- the armament is also reduced: 40% of the rifles, 60% of the cal.30 and 100% of cal.50 and ATG's are not deployed. These weapons stay with the vehicles to protect them. In game terms, it means that French player can't have cal.50 and dismounted cal.30 or ATG as support list.
- once on foot, the platoon can't be used as a "shock" troop as it lacks the manpower( only 1 voltigeurs squad) and the weapons( lack of smg's).
The French made slight adjustments on the 1942 TOE, not the 1944 TOE of an armored rifle company. The numbers match: 178 men and 17 HT ( 1942) when the 1943 list gives 251 men and 20 HT. At least for the 1st armored division.
And now, let's talk about the groups:
- voltigeurs means that these guys were trained to fight as infantrymen;
- pourvoyeurs means that these lads were ammo bearers and not part of the crew;
The 1942 us mortar squad was 7 men strong, with 1 SL, 2 ammo carriers, 2 gunners , 1 driver and 1 basic.
The 1944 french mortar squad was 7 men strong, with 1 SL, 2 ammo carriers( pourvoyeurs), 2 gunners, 1 driver and 1 driver's assistant.
They're the same, except for the armament:
3 carbines,1 smg, 2 pistols and 1 rifle for the us.
5 bolt-action rifles, 1 bazzoka and 2 pistols for the french.
This squad could be, in game terms: 60mm mortar with JL, crew 2, 2 riflemen.
More to come...I'm hungry...
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