Activating Italian Section

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

Post Reply
docgigawatts
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:37 pm

Activating Italian Section

Post by docgigawatts » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 pm

After some confusion regarding activating early war Italians I looked at https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... =35&t=9420 .

Seems we were largely correct, but I have an additional query.

If one of the 3 teams, 2 x MG and Rifle, was separated from the other two, and then can only be activated on a 1, can the remaining two teams be activated still on a 2 assuming they are within 4"?

In essence, do they still constitute a section or just two adjacent teams?

Thanks

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 pm

According to the principal of if it is a 2 team section and one team is missing then no
But they are Italians with far better command and control than mere Paras or Commandos ( ie every NCO is counted fully unlike the others where they are left out) so who knows :roll: :lol: :o

Munin
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Munin » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:35 pm

That's a good question. Technically they are no longer a squadra and thus are not eligible to activate on a 2. I would probably stick with that interpretation. (i.e. it is no different than a British section having its Bren and Rifle teams separated - each now activates on a 1).

Fortunately, the number of NCOs in the squadra should help them to activate what they need to activate.

docgigawatts
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by docgigawatts » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:51 pm

Thanks, that was the way we played it.

Makes 2's fairly useless for Italians but I guess it's made up for by the increased value of 4's.

Munin
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Munin » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:58 am

And don't forget, 2s can still be part of adding numbers together to activate leaders.

Rich H
Posts: 1049
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:18 am
Location: Preston UK

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Rich H » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:23 am

I'd still allow it, given how the doctrine worked: the Rifle team goes off to close with the enemy while the MG teams keep at range and suppress the enemy. so the MGs work together (as a section)

If you don't allow it then you have extra teams but the same number of dice as anyone else so you won't be able to carry out the correct tactics very easily.

OldNick
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:59 am
Location: Coventry UK

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by OldNick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:15 am

On the last point, you only have two squadra to spend your dice on, compared with three sections in most forces.

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Arlequín » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:42 am

For what it's worth, I think the 'Sergente' or more accurately the 'Comandante de Squadra', should be more accurately an Inferior Senior Leader (activates on a 4 with 2 CI), which both allows his shifting role across the squadra as a whole and gets rid of the superpower of activating on a 3 or 4. He is after all the leader of a 'half platoon' and not just one of three squad leaders. A British infantry platoon was actually organised in a very similar way before 1937 (two sections with a sergeant and a corporal as JLs, with a five-man gun group and a seven-man rifle group in each section).

Three SLs per platoon might seem over the top at first glance, but you only have two JLs to use any '3s' on. Invariably the Italian player will have to stack dice to activate his leaders, or settle for rifle group/MG group activations on '2s' and '1s'. IMHO that's suitably more of a C3 burden than the less demanding three squad system.

The terminology used in the list is a bit misleading, the platoon makes more sense in English if we say it is divided into two 'half-platoons', each of two 'sections' (only one of which is divided into 'teams'), rather than assuming a direct translation of a term also magically translates its meaning too.
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 pm
But they are Italians with far better command and control than mere Paras or Commandos ( ie every NCO is counted fully unlike the others where they are left out) so who knows :roll: :lol: :o


Actually every NCO, or even officer 'on paper' is not counted. Working purely on 'graduati' (an NCO that leads men and is not just a 'Gun Group' team leader like a Lance-Jack), there is a Commandante for each squadra, a Vice-Comandante and then the rifle group has another graduati on top too. So that's six JLs per platoon and there's the platoon 2iC missing as well, so 2 SLs rather than one. If we're adding 'LMG team leaders' as NCOs, then that's another four JLs, for a total of ten if 'every NCO is counted'.

As it is, having a single leader for the platoon, one for each squadra and another under him to lead the rifle group, but counting the MG Groups as 'Teams' in a squad, is a pretty accurate portrayal of an Italian platoon at work; at least as far as the REI manual goes. I do think the SJL is the elephant in the room though.

Archdukek
Posts: 3566
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Archdukek » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:46 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 pm
According to the principal of if it is a 2 team section and one team is missing then no.
Actually as I recall that "principal" doesn't apply. Pretty sure that it has been confirmed before that if one team in a 3 team squad goes awol for any reason then the other two teams still count as a squad if they are within 4" of each other. Same as if your two team squad spins off a scout team.

John

Lowtardog
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: Activating Italian Section

Post by Lowtardog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:26 pm

Interesting stuff I have a hankering to do Italians for Europe with the Empress minis which are beauties, you lot are teasing me

Post Reply