Another query

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Sgt Steiner
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Another query

Post by Sgt Steiner » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:47 am

Hi

Sorry but another query after another game.

Can Blinds use Reserve Dice ?

We have been playing that they could along with optional deploying on Tea Break card (so blinds could fire at turns end beyond 9") but after re-reading the rules on Blinds pg 22 and Overwatch am far from sure now

On pg 22 it states that Blinds can deply and fire but only if not having Moved or Spotted which would therefore preclude reserving dice.
Also under Overwatch it says Units can Reserve dice and further text mentions sections but no mention of Blinds.

Hmmmm

Archdukek
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Re: Another query

Post by Archdukek » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:30 pm

Yes Blinds can reserve dice for use later in the Turn like any other unit. A blind is simply a hidden unit or one which has not been spotted by the enemy and can act like any other unit but has the benefit of an extra action, thus a potentially larger move and better coordination.

The paragraph at the foot of page 22 does not say that units on a Blind cannot deploy if they have used actions to Spot or Move, it is simply saying that there is no cost in actions to deploy so a unit deploying could fire as normal. Later on that page section 2.1.1 covers the situation where a blind may have used some of its actions before deploying. So a unit on a Blind can use an action to Move, then one to spot an enemy then could deploy and use 2 actions to fire upon it.

So you've been playing it right.

John

Sgt Steiner
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Re: Another query

Post by Sgt Steiner » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:31 pm

Hi John

Hmmm my reading is different.

From pg 22-
"Blinds operate with four Actions which they may use to Move and Spot in any order desired. If the unit wishes to open fire and has not used any of its Actions it is placed on the table, at no cost in Actions, and may then fire as normal......"

The 2nd sentence has me confused as it makes it clear that a Blind can only open fire if it has not used Any of its actions ie you Move and Spot with up to 4 actions OR you Fire from a Blind using all 4 actions and it is this firing action that allows free deployment ?
This is why I have begun to think Reserving Dice on blinds is moot as if you use any to move or spot that precludes firing.
In effect a blind sort of reserves all its dice for firing if it does nothing else but does not go on Overwatch ???
Do you allow Blinds to use Overwatch which is what Reserve dice are primarily for ?

I can see that a blind is still classed as a unit but not clearly defined in rules especially as some Blinds are dummies and therefore not actual units ?

In the end not a lot of difference playing with or without Reserve Dice on blinds as long as both sides play same way just interested to hear how others play.

Cheers

Sgt Steiner
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Re: Another query

Post by Sgt Steiner » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:37 pm

Re 2.1.1 I see what you are saying but again I understand this in contrary fashion :-)
I thought this covered Blinds that maybe are Spotted before their Blinds card appears (and before their unit card goes into deck) in that despite being on table they still get the 4 actions of a Blind despite unit being allowed less ?

One last thing from your answer I don't get is-
"A blind is simply a hidden unit (fine so far) or one that has not been spotted by the enemy (uh oh)"

I thought once Spotted by enemy or by your owning Firing you are deployed and therefore spotted by all enemy. In what circumstances can you be deployed but not spotted ??

Cheers again

jayhome2
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Re: Another query

Post by jayhome2 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm

"I thought once Spotted by enemy or by your owning Firing you are deployed and therefore spotted by all enemy. In what circumstances can you be deployed but not spotted ??"
I believe any unit placed on the table in cover at the beginning of a game is treated as if it is on a blind until it is spotted. eg one side is defending a town and has placed all of it's units in buildings or behind high walls. No need to disclose exact location by placing on a blind, but the enemy can not "see" until spotted.
Jay

Sgt Steiner
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Re: Another query

Post by Sgt Steiner » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:56 pm

Roger that.

Archdukek
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Re: Another query

Post by Archdukek » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:41 pm

Hi Sgt.,
My apologies for not responding sooner, been a bit busy.

You can have hidden units in cover or you can have units moving on blinds who have not been spotted by the enemy. Both are units under the rules and can reserve dice, go on overwatch, etc. Dummy blinds are not units, they are simply small groups of scouts who can move or spot but cannot fire. So you can't place them on overwatch but they can reserve dice to spot later in the turn when an enemy blind appears.

You asked "In what circumstances can you be deployed but not spotted?" I thought I had already explained that in my previous reply to your query as to why there was a +1 modifier to the spotting roll if the target has fired. A unit can voluntarily deploy from a blind and open fire. However, before the enemy can fire back the firing unit has to be spotted. The act of deployment does not reveal its presence to all and sundry, that only happens after a successful spotting roll.

I think we may have to agree to disagree over our respective reading of section 2.1 and 2.1.1. I can see no justification in either game terms or real life why your very narrow interpretation of 2.1, that a unit cannot use any actions to move or spot before voluntarily deploying, should apply. It makes no sense to me I'm afraid. Nor can I see anything in 2.1.1 which would restrict its application only to Blinds which had been spotted by the enemy.

By your logic it is actually beneficial for a blind to be spotted after it has begun to move or spot since then 2.1.1 applies allowing it to deploy and fire with its remaining actions. However, a blind which remains unspotted by the enemy cannot move to a favourable position before deploying and opening fire according to your interpretation. That doesn't seem right to me.

John

Sgt Steiner
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Re: Another query

Post by Sgt Steiner » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:38 pm

Hi John

Yes I get what you are saying and essentially agree (and is how we had been playing) its just that the wording of 2.1.1 threw some mud in my eyes and I still confess that I really don't know what this sentence is telling me ?

"If the unit wishes to open fire and has not used any of its Actions it is placed on the table, at no cost in Actions, and may then fire as normal,"

Re Spotting just to be clear (again :-) ) If a unit under a Blind fires and deploys it is not necessarily spotted, one would still need to adjudicate if auto-spotted or if spotting roll needed as and when a unit/blind has LOS to it ? certainly that makes sense of the +1 for firing factor as you said previously.

One unrelated query when do you place cards such as Air Support into a deck ? at start along with Blinds and Tea Break card or ?
We played that it was included after any enemy unit was deployed/spotted otherwise it was a 'dud' card as no attack possible.

Another game planned for Saturday hopefully no more queries :-)

GB

Archdukek
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Re: Another query

Post by Archdukek » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 pm

Hi GB,
That sentence puzzles me a little too. I think it is just saying that it costs no actions to deploy from a blind. But sometimes I do wonder "fire as normal" means with just 3 actions! Take your pick.

Yes that's how I understand spotting works.

As for Air Support I would expect its appearance to be determined by the scenario design. It should probably only appear some time in game, perhaps after 'X' turns of the blank card. Certainly I'd agree that only after the FAA or equivalent is fielded.

John

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Vis Bellica
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Re: Another query

Post by Vis Bellica » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:41 am

Or you can have the most senior Big Man using all of his Actions in one activation to call in the Air Support: place the card in the pack after the next Tea Break.

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