Tonight's random questions

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GavinP
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Tonight's random questions

Post by GavinP » Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 pm

So we played game 3 of our Maltot campaign tonight which inevitably lead to some more queries on the rules and At The Sharp End.

1) If you have two enemy teams within 4" of each other, you can only concentrate on one if it is in worse cover than the other. Does one unit being Tactical mean that a Team otherwise in the same cover as the tactical one can be concentrated on?

2) if a FOO is wounded a second time is he dead?

3) in ATSE, If the scenario objective is met (British successfully got a Team to the enemy table edge in Probe) should the Germans roll for pinned troops in the same manner as they would if they voluntarily withdrew?

4) When rolling for men's opinion in ATSE, do men lost POW from voluntary withdrawal rolls count as dead for the purposes of heavy casualties and losing more than the enemy?

5) If a side give a ground in ATSE do you roll all the opinions and outlook again? Did the side who gave ground roll as if it lost? If so does it roll twice for the co opinion?

6) on a 3rd or subsequent activation of a mortar barrage do you roll for effect increasing level of cover back up one to reflect pinned?

7) If there are 6 teams under a barrage and 3 leaders, do you roll for kills on leaders as you do for small arms, totalling kills and rolling less or equal, or casualties per team, or do you roll 4 FP against each leader separately?

In our game we aggressively patrolled with 3 markers to their 4 which they foolishly split into pairs. We got decent JOP half way up the table and were able to deploy a section on overwatch to which they deployed several squads. The firing initially was poor on both sides and then they got a couple of double 6 rolls and really poured it on. We lost 7 killed from the only full section we had left and then the FOO dropped the mortars across all their forces. Campaign wise this was table 2, game 3 and the Germans have had to give up ground being reduced to 9 effectives as I ruled anyone pinned had to roll to get away. 5 went into the bag but 11 were dispersed. They traded time for land and so we are playing game 5 on table 4.... enjoying it but the dice swings are so severe it does spoil things. For example they rolled approx 60% hits over course of the game, despite having 33% chance... And that pair can reliably do that in any game. Every week...

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Truscott Trotter » Thu May 17, 2018 12:03 am

My 2c worth
1.) Yes
2.) Nope he is indestructible by wounds ......sigh
3.) Sorry would have to find my copy of ATSE
4.) Not sure but instinct says yes - they are 'dead' in practical terms.
5.) No idea one for Rich?
6.) Yes if you are playing RAW
7.) We were before we made our houserules but I saw some recent post that said you never roll for leaders or snipers under a barrage but don't quote me on that.

We are play testing a new rule whereby your double turns allow you to do everything BUT fire . This stops the endless shooting . It seems silly you stand still in the middle of a field while 3 or 4 units pour fire into you for 4 or 5 phases in a row. It is instead of convoluted restrictions on repeat double and triple turns - I thought it was counter-intuitive at first but after playing it once it is worth play testing a few more times

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Tom Ballou
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Tom Ballou » Thu May 17, 2018 1:55 am

GavinP wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 pm
In our game we aggressively patrolled with 3 markers to their 4 which they foolishly split into pairs.
Humm, I thought that all patrol markers had to be connected, you couldn’t split them up?
--Tom

Never drive a car when you're dead
--Tom Waits "Telephone Call From Istanbul"

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Truscott Trotter » Thu May 17, 2018 2:01 am

As long as the pairs are within 12" you can.
I find it can be useful in the beginning but you need to split them up when the enemy patrol markers get within 24' to avoid having two of your patrol markers locked down at the same time

GavinP
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by GavinP » Thu May 17, 2018 4:40 am

Tom Ballou wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:55 am
GavinP wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 pm
In our game we aggressively patrolled with 3 markers to their 4 which they foolishly split into pairs.
Humm, I thought that all patrol markers had to be connected, you couldn’t split them up?
The scenario in the book says that the defenders take 4 patrol markers and they can be placed anywhere within their deployment zone as long as each marker is within 12" of at least one other marker.

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Seret
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Seret » Thu May 17, 2018 8:26 am

GavinP wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:40 am
The scenario in the book says that the defenders take 4 patrol markers and they can be placed anywhere within their deployment zone as long as each marker is within 12" of at least one other marker.
They've still always got to form that unbroken chain though.
GavinP wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 pm
1) If you have two enemy teams within 4" of each other, you can only concentrate on one if it is in worse cover than the other. Does one unit being Tactical mean that a Team otherwise in the same cover as the tactical one can be concentrated on?
Yes, presumably the guys not going tactical are more obvious so you're entitled to concentrate on the better target.
2) if a FOO is wounded a second time is he dead?
Nope.
3) in ATSE, If the scenario objective is met (British successfully got a Team to the enemy table edge in Probe) should the Germans roll for pinned troops in the same manner as they would if they voluntarily withdrew?
ATSE actually doesn't seem to address that one. I think when we've played it we've simply allowed the defending side to withdraw in good order and not make any rolls. But as long as your consistent I'd say classing it as a voluntary withdrawal makes sense.
4) When rolling for men's opinion in ATSE, do men lost POW from voluntary withdrawal rolls count as dead for the purposes of heavy casualties and losing more than the enemy?
Yep, those are still guys that the rest of the men think they'll never see again. Most ATSE campaigns use quite short campaign turns, the guys wouldn't have got word back from the Red Cross that they're alive and a POW. All the guys know until then is that they're missing.
5) If a side give a ground in ATSE do you roll all the opinions and outlook again? Did the side who gave ground roll as if it lost? If so does it roll twice for the co opinion?
I'm not sure about this, but I just roll for the CO's opinion on the withdrawal. Otherwise it counts as a victory for the other side, so yes roll for their CO's opinion, and both sides will roll under "very light casualties" on the men's opinion, so giving ground is a legit option if you're suffering from low men's opinion.
6) on a 3rd or subsequent activation of a mortar barrage do you roll for effect increasing level of cover back up one to reflect pinned?
Yep.
7) If there are 6 teams under a barrage and 3 leaders, do you roll for kills on leaders as you do for small arms, totalling kills and rolling less or equal, or casualties per team, or do you roll 4 FP against each leader separately?
Roll against the teams, then roll for risk to leaders as per small arms.

GavinP
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by GavinP » Thu May 17, 2018 10:20 am

Thanks Seret. I think we played it all OK then except with regard to the "unbroken chain", we definitely played that wrong. Shame that the wording in the scenarios doesn't point you back to that section rather than restating part but not all of the relevant rules...anyway, we know better now.

I will make a couple of post-it notes to annotate the ATSE print I have. I am concerned that with a plt pinned under a barrage there is no benefit to the other side to actually win the scenario via the victory conditions if in doing so the enemy escape with no penalty vs withdrawal..

Archdukek
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Archdukek » Thu May 17, 2018 4:43 pm

Gavin,
Not sure why you think there is no penalty to troops pinned under a barrage if your opponent wins the scenario. If the Force Morale hasn't dropped to 0 then the losing side is obliged to make a voluntary withdrawal having lost the scenario. The table on page 27 specifies that troops who are pinned when the game ends under those circumstances have to test to see if they are captured or dispersed. The ATSE rules make no distinction between whether they are pinned due to Shock or because they are under a barrage. I'd treat them exactly the same.

As for giving ground and the impact on the CO's opinion that depends on when the decision to give ground is made. If it's made immediately at the end of the game in the current campaign turn then it is assumed to have the approval of higher command so I'd say you don't test again. If you wait until the start of the next campaign turn to withdraw then it's deemed to be a hasty withdrawal done without approval so you would test. See the description of Giving Ground on pages 17 and 18.

John

GavinP
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by GavinP » Thu May 17, 2018 5:43 pm

John,

Thanks for the reply. Not to be pedantic but can you point to the page that says a side who lost makes a voluntary withdrawal? (I'm not saying it isn't the right answer, I just can't see it. And one could argue that it's actually involuntary!! :) )

Also, based on the "tests" on page 36 of ATSE I think you're wrong regarding not testing again, certainly for CO. The wording I'm referring to is "The unit gives ground with approval.
On a roll of 1 to 5 the CO’s opinion is unchanged. On a roll of 6 it increases by 1." If i follow you correctly, that test would never occur in your version?

Archdukek
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Re: Tonight's random questions

Post by Archdukek » Thu May 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Gavin,
Nope, it doesn't say specifically but it's the logical conclusion given that the only other alternative provided in ATSE just applies when a force routs because it's Force Morale drops to 0. I'm also pretty sure Rich has confirmed that in the past if you want to search on here for chapter & verse.

You're quite right about page 36 that's what I get for answering using my PDF for reference rather than my hard copy. :-)

John

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