Finnish Continuation War Lists

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pocoloco
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:08 am

Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by pocoloco » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Hi,

newbie here on TFL forum but here goes...

I have begun working on a Continuation War lists for the Finnish side of the conflict and below is what I have so far.

The support list is, currently, mostly similar to Winter War list, although I have already included some minor changes, such as placing pre-game barrage one level down as in the Continuation War Finland had much more artillery pieces and ammunation, acquired as war booty/loot during the Winter War and bought from abroad during the short peace between the Winter War and Continuation War. Also need to add odd tank and armoured car support options and few bigger AT guns.

I thought that the support list could include different phases of the Continuation War, for example Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust options would be marked as suitable options only from June 1944 onwards, just as the real situation was. I have no idea yet about the force ratings and such, so any help would be more than welcome.

One historical note regarding the machinegun platoon headquarters, historically it included (at least on paper, that is) two runners which I have now placed in the support list as an option. Should these be placed in the headquarters though?

Also the amount of Suomi submachinegun armed men in the sections need more defining as after the Winter War rifle platoon organisation was changed to include four complete sections which included both LMG and SMG. Later on, by late 1943 and after, there was an additional SMG included in each section and by the end of war, a third one.

If there is an interest, I could also start a list for the special strike detachments that operated mostly in the period of 1942 and 1943 during the so called trench warfare phase of the war (both sides having dug in on their respective sides).

***

CONTINUATION WAR FINNISH RIFLE PLATOON

PLATOON HEADQUARTERS

Vänrikki - senior leader, pistol
Kersantti - senior leader, rifle

SECTIONS ONE TO FOUR

Alikersantti - junior leader, smg
LMG with two crew
7 riflemen / 6 riflemen + 1 smg man after 1943 / 5 riflemen + 2 smg men by the end of war

***

CONTINUATION WAR FINNISH MACHINEGUN PLATOON

PLATOON HEADQUARTERS

Vänrikki - senior leader, pistol
Kersantti - senior leader, rifle (acted as secon in command) [commanded sections 1 and 2]
Kersantti - junior leader, rifle [commanded sections 3 and 4]

SECTIONS ONE TO FOUR

Alikersantti - junior leader, rifle

Maxim M/32 33 MMG - with five crew

***

FINNISH SUPPORT LIST

LIST ONE

medical orderly
minefield
barbed wire
runner (for MG platoon: first two for one point, after that one runner for one point)

LIST TWO

entrenchment for one section
roadblock
AT defence team, 3 men
Pre-game barrage
One CoC dice
25 PstK/37 25mm AT gun with 5 crew and Junior leader
Sniper team
Lahti L39 AT rifle Team, 5 men, 3 with rifles

LIST THREE

37 PstK 36 Bofors 37mm AT gun with 5 crew and Junior leader
45 PstK/32 captured Soviet 45mm AT gun with 5 crew and Junior leader
Regular rifle section with Junior leader

LIST FOUR

Vickers Armstong with Junior leader
Forward Observer team with 81mm mortar battery off-table

LIST FIVE

???

siggian
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Re: Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by siggian » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:15 pm

I'd leave the runners out of all lists. These guys are messengers who are either running from one place to another or are waiting at the HQ to get a message to run. If they are firing a rifle or whatever, they aren't doing their job of messaging.

Basically, in game terms, these are the guys who let you deploy a section or team to the JOP.

Sarmor
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Re: Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by Sarmor » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:44 pm

I don't speak Finnish and thus my sources are limited, so if you have better info, please correct me.

Basing on the information given here, the infantry squads were 9-man strong (not 10, as yours is) and looked like this:

1941-42
Alikersantti - junior leader, rifle
DP LMG with two crew
5 riflemen + 1 man with SMG

1943-45
Alikersantti - junior leader, smg
DP LMG with two crew
5 riflemen + 1 man with SMG

As for squads with 3 SMGs:
"By end of 1943 enough Suomi M/31 submachine guns had been manufactured for this new table of organisation and equipment to be fulfilled, so then decision about providing third submachine gun for each rifle squad was made, but this didn't materialise in large scale before Continuation War ended resulted halting of the Finnish weapons production."
The third SMG should be an option on the support List One.

About the choice of LMG.
In the Winter War list, Lahti-Saloranta has a lower firepower than the DP. However, Soviet LMGs (both DP and DT) were actually more numerous than the Finnish one. IMO the easiest way is to omit the Lahti-Saloranta, since buying 2-4 additional DPs from the support list to make your platoon historical makes no sense.
(Of course one could use a mini with Lahti-Saloranta as a DP-gunner, especially that most lines do not include Finns with DPs/DTs.)

***

The jääkäri (jaeger) had a different platoon organisation:

PLATOON HEADQUARTERS

Luutnantti/Vänrikki - senior leader, pistol & SMG
Kersantti - senior leader, rifle (1941-2)/SMG (1943-5)

SECTIONS ONE TO FOUR

Alikersantti - junior leader, rifle
6 men armed with rifles + 2 men armed with SMGs (1941-3)/5 men armed with rifles + 3 men armed with SMGs (1943-5)

***

As for the support lists - does the position on the list reflect the availability of the equipment, or only how powerful it is?
Depending on the answer, the AT guns and AFVs should either be on the same list as in the original force (German/Soviet) or on a higher list.
pocoloco wrote:I thought that the support list could include different phases of the Continuation War, for example Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust options would be marked as suitable options only from June 1944 onwards, just as the real situation was. I have no idea yet about the force ratings and such, so any help would be more than welcome.
At first I thought about doing 2 different lists (1941-42 and 1943-45), though you might simply add dates next to all options in the lists.
pocoloco wrote:One historical note regarding the machinegun platoon headquarters, historically it included (at least on paper, that is) two runners which I have now placed in the support list as an option. Should these be placed in the headquarters though?
Infantry platoons had two runners too, and these were excluded from the Winter War list, so IMO no runners at all.
pocoloco wrote:If there is an interest, I could also start a list for the special strike detachments that operated mostly in the period of 1942 and 1943 during the so called trench warfare phase of the war (both sides having dug in on their respective sides).
Sounds interesting. How much do they differ from standard platoons?

pocoloco
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:08 am

Re: Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by pocoloco » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:14 pm

Hi,

sorry for a long delay on answering.

Quite correct on the 9 men squads. Four squads per platoon.

The 1 SMG per squad should be indeed for 1941 and 1942 (autumn), after that one extra SMG from support list one or maybe two SMGs from support list two. Would that make sense rules wise? Three SMGs per squad wasn't effective by the end of the Continuation War but there is still the Lapland War to cover though.

I think the easiest way to cover the LMG issue is to use same stats for all the LMGs unless one wants to go the most historical route as possible.

One example of assault platoon from 1941 is as follows:

ASSAULT SECTION:
- leader
- three assault teams each consisting of leader and three men, all armed with SMGs and grenades
- one pioneer team of four men (1+3)
- two prisoner escorters
- one messenger
- one minefield guard (showing the cleared path)

SUPPORT SECTION:
- leader
- two support teams of seven (1+6) men each
- medic team of four men (1+4)
- FFO team of four men (1+1+2)
- messenger

Don't know how that organisation could be depicted within the rules though?

mendoza
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Re: Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by mendoza » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:14 pm

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/blitzfinns.pdf

I think you can find some useful information to improve the list. I like the information about soviet captured tank.

See you.

siggian
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Re: Finnish Continuation War Lists

Post by siggian » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:00 pm

If I had to guess:

ASSAULT SECTION:
- Junior leader (an otherwise ordinary JL but with 3 CI so that he can activate every section if need be) or you could just say he is a SL.

- three assault teams each consisting of four men, all armed with SMGs and grenades

(I think giving each team a JL would be a bit too much so I went with enhancing the commanding JL instead)

- one pioneer team of a JL (to allow the pioneer team to operate semi-independently of the assault teams) and 4 men (adding the minefield guard who I presume would act as a pioneer while the minefield was being cleared) - like other engineer teams/sections, once the pioneers have done their thing, they disappear off board. I would assume that the minefield guard does his thing but is not actively engaging the enemy (not on purpose anyway) so I would remove the figure when the rest of the pioneers are removed and abstract his job by allowing the assault teams to pass through the minefield safely.

- The prisoner escorters and the messenger would be left out of the game because they have a job to do that doesn't consist of shooting at the enemy.

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