Respective differences

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Pickedon
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Respective differences

Post by Pickedon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:00 pm

It all comes down to the word "respective"
On page 43 of GdA there is a diagram of 3 columns in arrow head formation. Let us imagine a enemy line facing them 4" away from the lead unit.
Can I declare a charge with the left rear column and take the more forward column as a support. This assumes I have the charge move to get into contact.
Why would I want to do that? What if the lead unit had 7 casualties on it while the trail unit was fresh. My best chance of getting in is to use the fresh unit as the lead.
On page 42 point 3 in "Supporting units in a charge" the rule says the supporting unit moves up with the lead unit maintaining its "respective" position.
1.Is respective meaning that if it starts as the right hand support it must remain the right hand support at the 3" position.
OR
2. Is respective meaning that as it started in front to the right of the Lead unit it must be in front to the right of the lead unit at the 3" point. As this would be impossible as it would by then be in contact with the target unit is the charge not possible.

The FAQ point 5 would imply interpretation 1 (support units can start from in front of the lead unit). But definitive 1 or 2 would be appreciated.

Wars have started over words!

Archdukek
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Archdukek » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:32 pm

For starters the Brigade would have to be on Infantry Assault orders for the rear unit to charge with support. Assuming that's the case then yes I believe you could declare the rear unit to be the lead unit for the assault. All units would then move forward maintaining their respective positions to the lead unit until they reach the 3" point when the forward unit must halt to allow the lead unit to catch up until it reaches the 3" point to carry out the Charge Procedure. Depending on the outcome the columns will then move forward together into melee.

The only problem with this clever wheeze is that you have converted the formations into a Massed Column charge at the 3" point so will suffer the consequences from defensive fire and if the Charge Procedure goes against you.

John

AduGreybull
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:58 am

Re: Respective differences

Post by AduGreybull » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:19 am

That reply is already very interesting? I am the other party in this debate. ;)

As my friend says, its down to the word Respective. My interpretation is that all the units must stay in the same relative position to each other during the charge adjudication piece. Only once the Lead unit has passed can any other units move up with it into melee.

To me 'relative' means that if a support unit is 2" to right and 2" back at the Charge Declaration, that is the relative position it must keep until the Lead units resolve is determined. The alternative we are talking about is that 'relative' only means the support unit must stay on the right.

TBH, either interpretation is fine really but both players must be singing from the same hymn sheet in a game...LOL!

On the "Lead" unit issue, yes it doesn't have to be the closest...but should not the chosen Lead unit be the one that hits the target centre, possibly needing a wheel in the process with the other unit(s) having to comply to keep their "relative" positions?

Great Rules btw Mr B

Archdukek
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Archdukek » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:08 am

AduGreybull wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:19 am
That reply is already very interesting? I am the other party in this debate. ;)

As my friend says, its down to the word Respective. My interpretation is that all the units must stay in the same relative position to each other during the charge adjudication piece. Only once the Lead unit has passed can any other units move up with it into melee.

To me 'relative' means that if a support unit is 2" to right and 2" back at the Charge Declaration, that is the relative position it must keep until the Lead units resolve is determined. The alternative we are talking about is that 'relative' only means the support unit must stay on the right.

TBH, either interpretation is fine really but both players must be singing from the same hymn sheet in a game...LOL!

On the "Lead" unit issue, yes it doesn't have to be the closest...but should not the chosen Lead unit be the one that hits the target centre, possibly needing a wheel in the process with the other unit(s) having to comply to keep their "relative" positions?

Great Rules btw Mr B
I would agree. I don't recall ever playing a game where the unit nearest to the defending unit was not designated as the "lead" unit. Never occurred to me to do anything else.
In the circumstances described in the original post, I have known a rear unit declare its own charge on the target which is possible because at the charge declaration point they are not massed columns.

John

Pickedon
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Pickedon » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:44 am

If I am mixed order with columns flanking a line would your rule force me to lead with the line?
If the most forward unit is stalled by fire discipline must the flank column stand and wait?

Personally I do not see this intention in the rule or the writing and would see a raft of knock on problems (as above). I do see in the optional rules the use of Regulating battalions (page 99) which would bring the idea of a lead battalion "holding back" its supports. But the placing of this rule back among the Optional rules I would see as reinforcing my more liberal interpretation.
Finally if you replace the arrow head formation with a simple oblique line of columns does the attack require the most forward unit that will have taken most damage to lead the assault? This common form of attack certainly did not stall with the halting of the lead element

Archdukek
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Archdukek » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:26 pm

I didn't say that you couldn't do it, as I said in my original reply there is nothing I can see in the rules to prevent it and I've never seen it done. As you point out the Regulating battalion rule might limit it but there is no obligation to designate the front battalion as the Regulating battalion.

If your Brigade is on Infantry Assault orders then in your ordre mixte example you could declare charges with both flanking columns leaving the line to provide support or a rally point if you don't commit it to the attack. As for oblique columns you could launch separate charges with each column if you wanted but you'll still need to watch out for creating a Massed Column attack.

John

AduGreybull
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Re: Respective differences

Post by AduGreybull » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:55 am

LOL...I am getting confused, aren't we 'shadow chasing' here :)

The question is; how arbitrary is it for the declared "Lead" unit to hit the centre of the target unit...and...how strict is the positioning of its "Support" units from the point the Charge is declared to the point where the Lead unit checks its resolve at the 5cm(3"). Page 44.4?

With this determined, the adjudication of whether a charge is valid or not becomes straightforward whatever the Brigades Formation. I think the intention is for a tighter adherence on this and it works perfectly well imo, whereas my friend believes a looser interpretation has more Historical context.

So, with 10 being no compromise on a scale of 1-10, how tight/loose is the ruling?

I understand the need for imprecise language in our Rules to give Players adjudication scope but this one is pretty fundamental and what I read here is going to affect every game of GdA I play from now on! :)

Cheers :D

Archdukek
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Archdukek » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:35 pm

For that firm an adjudication you need the rules author Dave Brown to express a view. Meantime just agree between yourselves or toss a coin.

John

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Polish Lancer
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Re: Respective differences

Post by Polish Lancer » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:17 pm

I think you are getting hung up on a pure example here and it is confusing things. That example is all about the lead being the centre unit and the group advancing together until the lead reaches 5cm as which point they all stop.

If your brigade is on 'infantry assault' and you declare the left rear battalion as your lead then imho the centre and left battalion move forward and the both will stop side by side at 5cm side by side. Or you could say that the lead move forward to the 5cm mark and the centre then move forward enough to maintain a support relative to the lead. Both option would work.

DCRBrown
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Re: Respective differences

Post by DCRBrown » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:17 am

I must admit I'm a bit lost reading this, so hopefully I've got the gist of Pickedon's issue.

You can choose any unit in an assaulting brigade to be the lead unit, as long as it fulfills the usual charge requirements.

If you have a supporting unit ahead of your lead unit, (but nonetheless still within support distance), it can still offer support.

So the situation would probably go something likely this:
Brigadier rides up to the 2nd battalion, currently placed on the right of the more advanced but battered 1st battalion and states, "Col. Pickedon you will now lead the assault directly to the enemy, the 1st battalion will await your advance and then follow you in! Move now!" or words to that effect. ;)

In gaming terms it matters little, simply indicate the charge unit, move it to the 5cms point and then move up the supporting units which also halt at the 5cms, or of course they can remain in position it they are already that close. The term maintain their respective position only applies to units abreast of or behind the lead unit, esp. rear supports, so the brigade moves up in a coordinated fashion, with supports clearly identified.

Hope that helps.

DB

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