Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

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bellebsc
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Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by bellebsc » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:00 am

A unit wins a victory and the defeated routed unit interpenetrates a unit directly behind it unforming it. The chargers role their dice and charge on towards the unformed unit, may the unformed unit fire on the chargers? I can't find anything to say they can't.

Now just to clarify if the unit that was interpenetrated was in a support role during the initial charge then I know they can't fire as they are automatically drawn into a support role.

This example is the unit was charged in the flank and there was fresh units setting up a second line of defence from the brigade behind them, so as the other units were not facing in the same direction of the unit during original charge then they can not automatically drawn in as a support role.

My thoughts are no they can't fire but would like to hear your thoughts John

Thanks

Ricky

Archdukek
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by Archdukek » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi Ricky,

As far as I can see there is nothing explicitly preventing the second defending unit firing as an Unformed unit when the attackers reach the 5cm point. However, I suggest you take a look at the earlier post on Firing at a unit crossing the front of the defender. In replying to that DB suggests that if the attackers with Charge On! are waiting 15cm of the new unit they are charging then there can be no counter fire on the way in. That prohibits notion would make even more sense in your example.

John

Archdukek
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by Archdukek » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi Ricky,

As far as I can see there is nothing explicitly preventing the second defending unit firing as an Unformed unit when the attackers reach the 5cm point. However, I suggest you take a look at the earlier post on Firing at a unit crossing the front of the defender. In replying to that DB suggests that if the attackers with Charge On! are waiting 15cm of the new unit they are charging then there can be no counter fire on the way in. That prohibition would make even more sense in your example.

John

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Polish Lancer
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by Polish Lancer » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm

bellebsc wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:00 am
A unit wins a victory and the defeated routed unit interpenetrates a unit directly behind it unforming it. The chargers role their dice and charge on towards the unformed unit, may the unformed unit fire on the chargers? I can't find anything to say they can't.

Now just to clarify if the unit that was interpenetrated was in a support role during the initial charge then I know they can't fire as they are automatically drawn into a support role.

This example is the unit was charged in the flank and there was fresh units setting up a second line of defence from the brigade behind them, so as the other units were not facing in the same direction of the unit during original charge then they can not automatically drawn in as a support role.

My thoughts are no they can't fire but would like to hear your thoughts John

Thanks

Ricky
If your supporting unit is directly behind the initial rout, it cannot fire as it must retire. See page 49 Para 12 - Routs

12. Rout! The losing unit immediately Routs. Routers conduct a full Rout move to the rear or to behind a supporting unit. If the Routed unit
cannot fall back to within 5cm [3"] of a friendly unit (not Skirmishers, Retreating or Routed), it will Disperse. Any supports Retire. The
Routed unit’s brigade is now marked with a Falter marker. Routed Artillery is removed from play.

If the charge on can still impact the retired unit then it could fire with any negative modifier it may have. The unit retires 20cm and goes unformed. The routing unit moves 30cm and behind friendly close order unit to shelter it. Highly probable that the victor will even contact the retired unit.

Archdukek
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by Archdukek » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:53 am

Hi Polish Lancer,
In his OP Ricky acknowledged that if the unit to the rear was supporting then it couldn't fire and the outcome would be different as you say. However, in his case the rear unit was not in a position to provide support but close enough to be interpenetrated so it isn't forced to retire.

Any thoughts on whether it could fire in that different case?

John

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Polish Lancer
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by Polish Lancer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:22 pm

I would say it could not fire. As it has friends coming directly at them and hot on those heels is the victorious unit. The burst through situation for me would lead to confusion and lack of cohesion, hence unformed.

If however the unit to the rear was outside the initial distance the router must move directly back, it would flow around, but it view for most of this time is still obscured by the friendly unit. My personal view here is that they will fire, but perhaps as an inferior volley.

DCRBrown
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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by DCRBrown » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:23 am

Ricky,

If the unformed/interpenetrated unit was a support then it cannot fire as it must retire with its routed lead unit.

If the unformed/interpenetrated unit was not a support then it may fire with an unformed volley.

In future the revised ruling will be: "No units may fire at a Charging On! unit if the chargers are within 15cms." (I.e. it's too close for the defenders to react quickly enough.)

DB

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Re: Interpenetration fire or not to fire.

Post by EQUITES » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:35 am

Hi Dave,
maybe it's time to update your FAQS file.....what do you think ?
Michele

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