Engineers in the coculator

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chris cornwell
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Engineers in the coculator

Post by chris cornwell » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 am

I’m putting together a Big CoC game scenario which will include a pioneer platoon for the Germans, there are a few pioneer lists around (Xmas special 16) but they don’t quite look like what I want - so want to check my own against a coculator value....but there isn’t one for engineer types - while having a support point rating for an engineer team is fine there is no CoCulator value. Has anyone here smarter than me got a CoCulator rating for a 3 man Demo, wire, or mine clearing team? I was thinking a coculator value of 3..sound about right?
Cheers. Chris

Rich H
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by Rich H » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 pm

I'd not worry about it. They will be fighting as 'men' so treat them as such, wire clearing, demo, etc is such a situational thing it's not worht considering IMO.

GunnarL
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by GunnarL » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 pm

If you really want them to be considered, you could always look at the standard support list and then the player would have to pay the price to exchange 3 riflemen for the 3 engineers/men with appropriate equipment.

chris cornwell
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by chris cornwell » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:23 pm

Well, no, they won't be fighting as men, they are specialists.
This is part of a core platoon for a campaign weekend for a specific set of big coc scenarios, the player won't get any choice about the initial composition, so I'd like to run the entire platoon through the coculator to give me a cost for balancing the forces overall

So a section will look like either:
JL/smg + LMG team (3 crew), rifle team (6 rifle) + eng team (3 men)
or:
JL/smg + LMG team (3 crew), rifle team (6 rifle + eng (3 men)

3 x sections + 1 senior leader/smg
either way assuming 1 point for each eng gives a coculator rating of 82 so a Force Rating of regular minus 1

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:37 pm

There is a campaign list somewhere where Rich actually did a Pioneer plt but how he calculated the force level is anyones guess but it has some rules for use.

I would balance any increase in 'cost' of the pioneers against any cost to the defenders for their fortifications or obstacles.

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Seret
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by Seret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:44 pm

There's a pioneer list in the Blitzkrieg book. It's got great big squads (16 men) and a squad can convert three men into a wire, dems, or mine team for free. Or to a flamethrower team for only one point, which has to be the best deal ever.

chris cornwell
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by chris cornwell » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:04 pm

Doh...how on earth did I miss that? That’ll do just fine - they ain’t getting the FT option though...way too cheap- :-)
Thanks!

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:59 pm

Well you have two choices with flamethrowers - up the cost or change the rules
My suggestion is to make their use more realistic - they were quite difficult to use effectively in combat - according to
PORTABLE FLAME THROWER OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR II By LT COL LEONARD L. McKINNEY, Office of the Chief, Chemical Corps 1 December 1949

I would suggest they not be able to move and fire and they not be able to fire against moving vehicles using 2+ dice to move in the last or current phase

Here's an extract of FT use in Bougainville - training of operators 1943
In approaching the enemy position, security was to be obtained by use of cover or smoke or by supporting, fire from the infantry which would force the enemy to take cover. The directive also stated that limited experience in offensive jungle operations indicated that the flame thrower was most useful in mopping-up operations, against tanks,and especially against well prepared dugouts in rocky hillsides or under large trees.

The following operational procedure was prescribed:The weapon was to be kept in readiness at a convenient point in the battalion area until an obstacle was encountered which could not be reduced by ordinary weapons. The obstacle was to be by-passed by the advancing forces and enemy resistance in the area eliminated by flame.A flame thrower operator and a security detachment consisting of possibly two automatic riflemen and two riflemen were to approach the target, taking maximum advantage of cover. Upon approaching the target,two riflemen were to form a fixing or holding force to keep the enemy under cover; the nitrogen, fuel-line, and hydrogen valves and the ignition system of the flame thrower were to be given a final test by the operator as he crawled forward, holding the gun in one hand and dragging the fuel assembly behind him. Upon reaching a position approximately twenty yards from the target, a few bursts of flame were to be fired in the openings of the obstacle.

It should be noted that the above policy provided for employment of flame throwers by infantry troops instead of making them dependent on the engineers for this type of support. This policy was adopted,.it.appears, because the engineers were usually engaged in construction and were not available to furnish flame thrower operators.

poiter50
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by poiter50 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:20 am

Nice find, TT. Reading Into Oblivion, the author implies that FTs were kept in Company Reserve and only brought forward to deal with difficult situations. He was commanding an Engineer Company at Stalingrad, the book is one of the most interesting I have read with frequent placement and dismantling of defences such as Spanish Riders and minefields as well as bridging works.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Engineers in the coculator

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:53 am

Into Oblivion looks great but at 75 quid I might give it a miss........... :cry:

Oh would be interested to see if there are any first hand accounts in that book where the Pioneers remove obstacles under fire and how that went?

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