Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

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Truscott Trotter
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Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:15 am

Just knocked this up this arvo - first draft all C&C welcomed
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wjozyy9fg4nyp ... 4.pdf?dl=0
Thanks to Oozeboss for the graphics ;) :D

Neal Smith
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Neal Smith » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:06 am

Very cool list!

What does the "*" on the 50mm mtr item mean?
Captured is spelled wrong in the captured vehicles rule.
Tunnels rule - What do you think about allowing Polish patrol markers to move a further 6" AFTER they are locked down?

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Rusty
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Rusty » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:22 am

It is called a DRAFT copy its going to have mistakes luck I know TT and he take comments on it

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:59 am

Have ver 1 1 ready to go some minor corrections thanks for the typo will also think about tunnels suggestion

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:45 am

Ver 1.1 here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnb0f36ks2u0e ... 9.pdf?dl=0
The * is to do with using Polish Soviet support options

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Seret
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Seret » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:36 am

List 2 for the 221 seems a bit cheap, the Arsenal has it on List 3. Presumably that's been dropped down because its green, but then the 251 is still on List 3?

The PzJg 38T and Pz IV seem to have dropped from 8 down to 6, which seems fair enough, but then the Panther is still List 9. It's also listed as having armour 11, which is pretty high for a Panther, they only had 80mm at the front which is at best armour 8 in CoC. The Tiger 1 also doesn't seem to have got much a downgrade for being green, List 9 is only 1 below the Arsenal, and you've shown it as armour 11 as well, when it should be around 8 (100mm unsloped).

The CoCulator doesn't really give much of a clue what to do for Green vehicles, you could always take the queue from the infantry and drop their points by ⅓?

Assume you're using manhole covers as JOPs? :)

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:52 pm

Hi Seret

Thanks for the comments

Firstly all stats and support levels were taken from the main rulebook not the Arsenal - mainly so that it has a common reference point for players not aware of the CA and also because I do not agree with the revised German armour stats. E.g I do not believe Panther and Tiger amour to be only 1 point better than a Sherman or Panzer IV

Second point is yes Green vehicles are not costed in calculator and in addition I have the Captured vehicle rule whereby everytime you move or fire the main gun it may be the last time you do it in the game.

I was not sure how to cost that but i decided to try a drop of 1 support level to account for Green (which only effects moral for vehicles AFAIK?) and captured vehicle rule.

The 221 and 251 do not have a main gun so I was going to keep them at their original level - so I need to correct the 221
Maybe i should drop the tanks 2 levels and the 221 and 251 1 level?

With regards to the Panthers armour - every other rulebook I have played equated the front armour of the two vehicles the same or very close - depending on the scale of armour differentiation, 80mm sloped Vs 100-110mm vertical. Although most rules do not allow for the hardness difference which in reality made the Panther worse than the Tiger.

The other factor I think is missing is the weak Panther side armour. I could maybe make Panther side armour defend as rear armour?

Then the difference in amour and HE power should make a difference of 1 support level?

FWIW the main rule book has the Panther and Tiger both at list 10

Cheers
TT

PS Yes we should have manhole covers as JOP's
There were some great sewer fighting rules in the old Flames of War V2 rulebook - might see if I can dig them out!

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Seret
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Seret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:52 pm
Firstly all stats and support levels were taken from the main rulebook not the Arsenal - mainly so that it has a common reference point for players not aware of the CA
Yeah, but you're publishing the stats yourself in the document, so you can use any source you like

and also because I do not agree with the revised German armour stats. E.g I do not believe Panther and Tiger amour to be only 1 point better than a Sherman or Panzer IV
Well, a late model PzIV did have the same thickness of armour as a Panther. The only difference is that the Panther's was sloped. The Panther actually wasn't particularly well-armoured, and by late war standards neither was the Tiger 1.
I was not sure how to cost that but i decided to try a drop of 1 support level to account for Green (which only effects moral for vehicles AFAIK?) and captured vehicle rule.
That drop in morale is pretty important though, it makes the vehicle easier to take out. A green vehicle taking two net hits will be stopped in its tracks. Being forced to bail at three shock instead of four is actually a pretty big difference IMO. Since it affects all vehicles the same I'd be inclined to apply the same reduction to all of them, so a %age drop instead of a flat rate (which is a bigger deal for the cheaper vehicles than the expensive ones)
With regards to the Panthers armour - every other rulebook I have played equated the front armour of the two vehicles the same or very close - depending on the scale of armour differentiation, 80mm sloped Vs 100-110mm vertical.
Indeed, as does the Arsenal. Either way, to get 11 armour it needs to be either 100-121mm and sloped more than 55º, 121-140mm and sloped less, or 150mm thick. So neither the Panther or Tiger should be armour 11.
There were some great sewer fighting rules in the old Flames of War V2 rulebook - might see if I can dig them out!
There was also a good article about wargaming the Uprising in Miniature Wargames Issue 416, it had good notes on the mix of weapons AK units had available, and some rules for using sewers. Not really designed specifically for CoC, but skirmish scale and definitely adaptable. Plus, as a little bonus, if you look hard enough through that magazine you'll get your very own picture of me ;)

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Seret not sure where you got your figures for the Panther from but by my calcs from here
https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor- ... &angle_2=0
and here
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Scheme.jpg
the Panthers front armour on the glacis is equal to 148mm

Will have a look for the MW issue - despite the danger! :lol:

PS There does appear to be an increase in parts of the PIV H's armour to 80mm instead of the 50mm of the PIVG so I will make the captured ones G's in this pdf :D

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Seret
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Re: Draft list for Polish Home Army 1944

Post by Seret » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:05 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:02 am
Hi Seret not sure where you got your figures for the Panther from but by my calcs from here
Afraid Rich doesn't entertain anything that fancy in the CoCulator. It's just straight thickness (in this case 80mm, or armour 7), then a slope of 51º or more gives +2, for armour 9 in total.

The way you're calculating is probably how it should be done though.

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