Using The September War for COC

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Danni1
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Using The September War for COC

Post by Danni1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm

Hey all, I was glancing over IABSM's "The September War" for the 1939 Poland Campaign, and I was wondering how I could break this down for Chain of Command? Any suggestions? Also, I was wondering how DOES one play the Polish side in a wargame without experiencing an overwhelming sense of futility. I mean, if there was ever the perfect example of "Winning the battle but losing the war", this would be it. Its a tad discouraging to know that no matter how brilliantly one wins a campaign, the Poles are still a speedbump on history's highway once the Panzers roll over them. Was there a way for the Poles to actually survive as a nation past 1939? Maybe by being mobilized earlier, or if the USSR had stayed out of the fight? Any ideas on this?

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Vis Bellica
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by Vis Bellica » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:29 pm

You think that's bad? At least you can win the individual battles even if you know you're going to lose the war. Try playing the Italians in the first few Operation Compass scenarios. They are designed to break the will of the Italian player, realistically softening up his morale for the rest of the campaign!

Danni1
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by Danni1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:11 pm

LOL!

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jony663
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by jony663 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 pm

Often the Polish forces were on par with the Germans with stand up battles, but they were often having their flanks turned which does not come into play in Chain of Command. I like using the Poles as the smug German player often thinks he has already won.

moiterei_1984
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by moiterei_1984 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Danni1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm
...Was there a way for the Poles to actually survive as a nation past 1939? Maybe by being mobilized earlier, or if the USSR had stayed out of the fight? Any ideas on this?
When the Boche would have left all their tanks as well as the Luftwaffe at home maybe. Sorry to sound rude, but Poland had realistically no chance to survive any kind of determined attack by Germany. The Polish defensive plan, or at least it‘s execution, was utterly flawed and their army, while apparently strong on paper, was handicapped by both outdated doctrine and materiel. Even when the Soviets wouldn’t have joined the banquet the difference would have been measured in weeks if not days.

The one and only realistical chance I see would have been a strong and determined attack by the western allies, instead of that charade the French so pathetically called the „Saar Offensive“.

Contrarius
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by Contrarius » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:57 pm

Danni1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm
I was wondering how DOES one play the Polish side in a wargame without experiencing an overwhelming sense of futility. I mean, if there was ever the perfect example of "Winning the battle but losing the war", this would be it. Its a tad discouraging to know that no matter how brilliantly one wins a campaign, the Poles are still a speedbump on history's highway once the Panzers roll over them. Was there a way for the Poles to actually survive as a nation past 1939? Maybe by being mobilized earlier, or if the USSR had stayed out of the fight? Any ideas on this?
Many mistakes were made in Polish high command in the years immediately preceeding the war; but it would be hard to model these without a complete revamp of the strategic deployments of Polish armies. Also a lot of effort was wasted on the cavalry arm that might better have been invested in armour. Of more immediate effect was the decision not to fully mobilize in late August -- despite ample warning of the German build-up -- for fear of aggravating Herr Hilter. The Polish CinC was also largely incompetent, which didn't help, and was too busy playing politics instead of planning for war.

I believe, however, that Poland 39 still provides many excellent campaign possibilities, providing the Polish player's objectives are fairly limited and the German/ Soviet player's are quite hard to achieve. Above all, both Soviet and German armies were very green at the start of the campaign and also rather gung-ho, which led to extremely high casualties suffered in poorly executed attacks. I don't really understand why the Soviets in Finland are rated Green, while in Poland, several months earlier they are rated Regular. In several of the attacks on fixed positions in the early days of the war, e.g. Mokra, Mlawa, there is even a case for classing the Germans as Green, and not just the SS-VT elements of the German forces.

siggian
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by siggian » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Danni1 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm
I don't really understand why the Soviets in Finland are rated Green, while in Poland, several months earlier they are rated Regular. In several of the attacks on fixed positions in the early days of the war, e.g. Mokra, Mlawa, there is even a case for classing the Germans as Green, and not just the SS-VT elements of the German forces.
I'd look at Elite/Regular/Green in a relativistic way rather than an absolute way. In Finland, the vast bulk of the Soviet armies performed very badly compared to the Finns. So the Finns should be regular or even elite and comparatively, therefore the Russians are mostly Green with maybe a couple of regular units spotted in to represent occasional flashes of competency. Relatively, the Finns were superior and so their troop experience reflects that.

In Poland, I get the general impression that the Poles were not all that much better or worse than their opponents at a tactical level. Since CoC works best when it is regular vs regular, despite both sides being green in terms of experience, I'd make them both regular because they were relatively similar.

Contrarius
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Re: Using The September War for COC

Post by Contrarius » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:24 pm

Yes, @siggian, I'd agree the Poles and Germans were equally green, though the Ruskis had the disadvantage of not even having their senior officers, most of them being killed in the purges. But since CoC is a low level game, I guess we could put everyone on par at Regular. I'd be interested, though, to see how they play thru as Green vs Green.

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