How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

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KomSoMol
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How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by KomSoMol »

Hello Forum and (hopefully) TFL Team!

I wonder why nobody created such a topic long time ago (at least, the search does not bring up anything similar). I have an idea of a CoC rule errata. Please, find the clarification below:

1. Remember all of your CoC games. An infantryman with which weapon (except for a pistol) is usually the most useless in a squad? Likely for you, as well as for me, it's the SMG. Having a JL with a rifle feels like a blessing. To approve my words, I'm giving a link to this Koenigsberg assault campaign batrep (http://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com/ ... rio-1.html), where during the whole campaign only 3 DP LMGs were actually fighting in an entire platoon of Soviet submachine-gunners.

2. In CoCulator an infantryman with an SMG is worth 2 points - as much as 2 riflemen. He has the same survivability as 1 rifleman. But he shoots better than 2 rifles only in a range between 4 and 6 inches. Plus, in CC he gives 1 die (i.e. 1,5 times) more than 2 riflemen. In all the other ranges he either shoots worse than 2 rifles, or doesn't shoot at all. I.e. he almost never justifies his point cost.

3. A narrow range interval of better efficiency than 2 rifles suggests that you almost cannot get there "on foot". The rules of CoC don't allow orders like "move X inches", all the movements are identified either by a certain object at the end of the movement or just by a dice roll result. Thus, obviously, moving into 2" efficiency range is almost impossible. Which leads us to a conclusion that in CoC the SMG is a defence weapon. I.e. it works well only when deployed from a JOP in the point blank range. Which begets a paradox - an assault weapon in CoC is more effecient than rifles only in defence or from the ambushes. I hope you agree that this is strange.

4. In CoC 18" correspond to real 50 meters. I never shot an SMG personally, but I'm sure that hitting a person 50 meters away with short bursts of fire is not that hard. Many SMGs could decently hit human-size targets with single shots at 100 meters. Come on, even a crossbow has a range of 250m and remains lethal at 150m. Now (in CoC) an SMG bullet suddenly stops its flight after 34 meters of "life".

5. SMG in the rules is basically worthless. No one is afraid of SMGs, but they should. In ranges under 100 meters it must be much scarier than a rifle due to its rate of fire.


I offer both of the following:

1. Use the experience of DMZ or other amateur CoC-based rulesets and "enlarge" the SMG range. Give it the ranges of 12/18/24 and rates of fire of 4/2 with -1/1 with -1. It's done this way in DMZ, for example. Thus, it will at least sometimes shoot better than 2 rifles, and almost always shoot at least somehow.

2. Lower the SMG cost in CoCulator by 0.5 points. I.e. a man with an SMG will cost 1.5, a JL - 6.5, a SL - 9.5. It won't affect most lists (in rare occasions, it will give -1 to the resulting platoon strength), but it will greatly upgrade the SMG-heavy lists like Soviet assault or tank riders platoon by freeing up some points for support.


What do you think?
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Playtest a unit of 9 SMG firing rof 4 at 12" and see what happens? 😃
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KomSoMol
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by KomSoMol »

Truscott Trotter wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:51 am Playtest a unit of 9 SMG firing rof 4 at 12" and see what happens? 😃
1. Probably, the result will be similar to the real-life facing 9 SMGs at 30 meters?
2. By the way, the SMGs need to make it into 12" in the first place. Or you are attacking them, and then - refer to point 1 in the line above
Archdukek
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Archdukek »

I think you are at risk of comparing apples and oranges. The SMG is designed to be used at close ranges either in an assault or when defending against one. The firepower at short range in the rules and the bonus in Close Combat reflect that. The bolt action rifle is generally a more useful tool for an ordinary infantryman which is why the vast majority of infantry in WW2 were equipped with one.

The Soviet SMG platoons are something of an aberration and like the Tank rider units need to be brought into close range of their objective before being unleashed. By all means try tweaking their points value if that troubles you but I’d be wary about going too far with the weapon ranges or you will turn it into a must have weapon when it clearly wasn’t historically.

John
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Iztvan
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Iztvan »

Also, a lot will depend on terrain. If it is relatively open then sure, rifles and MGs will rip SMGs to shreds. But if there is a lot of LoS blocking terrain then SMGs can be brutal.

From experience one rifle more or less does not do that much at range. it can frequently be difficult to get all riflemen in good firing position. For long distance firefights MGs rule. A panzergrenadier squad can dish out tremendous firepower on a very short frontage.

But a few SMGs can be devastating when the fighting get up close and personal.
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KomSoMol
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by KomSoMol »

Archdukek wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:46 pmThe SMG is designed to be used at close ranges either in an assault or when defending against one. The firepower at short range in the rules and the bonus in Close Combat reflect that.
Please, refer to point #3 in the first message of the topic. You are talking about the "effectiveness" of SMG over rifle, but it's really more effective only in the narrow gap from 4" to 6". TWO INCHES. Does it worth all the restrictions SMG brings in?

I agree that SMS should be a highly specialized tool. But 2" is too "specialized", don't you think?
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Archdukek »

I think you are making a false comparison in comparing a single SMG armed soldier with 2 rifle armed men. The rules are based around Teams not individuals and you need to consider the effects at that level. A team of 6 SMG armed men will roll 12 dice out to 12” and 24 dice within 6” that’s a very significant difference over the 6 dice rolled by the rifle team. In Close Combat they are rolling 3x the dice of the rifle team making them highly effective in the tactical roll they were designed for.

Any point system is inevitably crude at times and we can debate ad nauseum whether an SMG armed man should be worth 2 points or less. In the example above 6 SMG compared to 6 rifles would only result in a difference of 1 Support Point in game terms which to me seems like good value for that capability in the right scenario. However, if you think it’s over costed try operating the units at a lower cost, say 1.5 points per SMG, and see if it makes a difference.

John
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Iztvan
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Iztvan »

Also remember if you have certain frontage where you can fire, not all men can fire, so high rate of fire is an advantage.

I would recommend playing a couple of games and if it still feels unbalanced you can change the points for your games then.

Also, Chain of Command is not as super-focused on points and balancing games between generic forces. It greatest strength is when playing campaigns between historical forces, and in those cases you have what you have.
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KomSoMol
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by KomSoMol »

Archdukek wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:20 pm I think you are making a false comparison in comparing a single SMG armed soldier with 2 rifle armed men. The rules are based around Teams not individuals and you need to consider the effects at that level.
I can't agree with you here. Yes, the rulebook says that "CoC is a team game". However, in the vast majority of cases, combat occurs at the level of squads, which, in turn, are taken from the historically-composed platoons.

Therefore, the situation described by you will most likely look not like "6 SMGs against 6 rifles", but like "7 SMGs against 7 rifles AND LMG" (a good example would be the British section or the German squad). From a gaming point of view, the 7 SMGs and 7 rifles + LMG are equivalent - both in points and in the share in the platoon. And now let's calculate how "equal" their strength in a shootout - below I give the statistical number of hits on Regulars in the order of SMG-rifles:

18"+ - 0-4
12"-18" - 0-6.5
6"-12" - 4.5-6.5
4"-6" - 14-6.5
0"-4" - 21-18 (here I supposed that the SMGs charged the rifles who are at least in some kind of cover)

I think this is a fairly clear illustration of the first post in the topic. And let me remind you, most of the shooting on the table happens on the ranges of more than 12". Even the shooting from one side of the street to another will be more than 6".

According to the rules of the patrol phase, JOPS cannot be closer than 24" from each other under any circumstances. Taking into account the placement within 6" from the JOP, attacking submachine gunners will find themselves 12"+ from the enemy. That is, before they come to the effective shooting range, they will have to get at least 1-2 phases of the opponent's shooting in the face. Which, of course, will reduce their number and, as a result, make them even less effective.

I'm not writing "let's make SMG a must-have" here, no. I'm just offering to give SMG a chance. Try to play at least a couple of missions in any campaign with a platoon of submachine gunners alone to understand how useless they are now. You don't even have to recalculate the strength of the platoon - just give each rifleman an SMG and try to attack in the mission. I think the result will be obvious. And it is extremely strange that an assault weapon is much less useful in an attack than a rifle.
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Vanth
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Re: How to make SMG useful. Core rules errata suggestion

Post by Vanth »

The SMG is an assault weapon, as you mention, and is better used in an assault. Which in CoC is the hth phase where its bonus comes in. Leaders were originally given SMGs exactly so that they would not be distracted from their primary task, which is to direct fire and lead their men, during firefights and they would instead add their weight during the close contact phases. Which I think is something modeled quite well in CoC.
Vanth
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