Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

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BaronVonWreckedoften
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Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften »

Some questions arose from what was very much a learning game tonight - early Barbarossa, one three-squad German platoon (me) v one three-squad Soviet platoon (regular gaming buddy), no supports.

My opponent went first and deployed all three of his squads across all three of his JOPs which were evenly spread across the table. One JOP was in a wood on his base edge, opposite another wood that was (just) on my side of the table, and behind which was one of my JOPs. Having deployed this squad, he then moved it forward into my wood. I then threw 3,3,3,4,6 - seeing an opportunity to overwhelm one of his squads, I deployed all three of mine, and the platoon commander, from the same JOP, which was so placed that in deploying six inches away all three of my squads could end up facing his one squad in the wood and within 4" of him.

1) Can you deploy and engage immediately in close combat?
2) Being within 4" of him, was I obliged to engage in close combat, since we were in woods where you have to be within 4" to see the enemy?
3) Could I not have simply shot at him instead, and if so, could I have used "maschinengewehre" in the woods?
4) Without finding anything specific in the rules, were we right to ban the use of "handgranaten" because we were in woods?
5) In the MDF sets, are the patrol markers really the larger discs and the JOPs the smaller ones? (I always thought it was the other way around.)

Thanks,
BvW
Last edited by BaronVonWreckedoften on Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Neil Todd
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Neil Todd »

He can't move the phase he deploys except for wheeled vehicles, so was there another phase between deployment and movement? Anyway answers below as I believe them to be.
1) yes you can deploy into close combat and it is sometimes necessary to save a JOP
2) yes you were within 4" and could see him so close combat happens
3) no I don't believe you can shoot or maschinengewehre because you can't shoot. If you could shoot I would say at best you would get half dice as if you had moved. I could be wrong here but that is my take.
4) I wouldn't ban handgranaten because of the woods, but I would say you couldn't use it because you are to close. Again that is just my opinion.
5) Yes.
When this situation has happened for us we normally also don't count defending LMGs and terrain bonuses as the combat is sudden and immediate. It makes for brutal sudden fights.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Truscott Trotter »

my 2 worth
1.) yes you can and with all 2 sections at once - remember to check if you have 4x as many dice its an auto rout.
from FAQ
Q: Can a unit deploying to table enter into close combat?
A: Certainly. Remember that if enemy troops come within 4” of the Jump-Off Point it cannot be used,
but if an enemy were 10” or less from a Jump-off Point, you could deploy Regular troops to that using
the 6” deployment distance and be within 4” of the enemy. In that case you would immediately be in
Close Combat .
Importantly, in that situation your opponent would not add any dice for the number of dice your
troops moved as, effectively you have surprised him. It is worth reiterating here that prior to the
game beginning, your opponent’s patrols told him where he had encountered your forces and those
locations are marked by the Jump-Off Points. There should be no surprise when you do appear in
that location!

2.) You are always in close combat within 4" unless no clear path.
3.) Yes and Yes no restrictions for MW in woods
4.) Interesting question - RAW it would appear not as you need to move to use the rule - but common sense says the Germans were all hiding waiting their chance to spring on the enemy so they would throw hand grenades in that situation.
5.) Yup the patrol markers are the larger ones - but we use and size shape JOP we want and leave a 30mm marker underneath to measure to the centre of

Munin
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Munin »

Neil Todd wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:05 am
3) no I don't believe you can shoot or maschinengewehre because you can't shoot. If you could shoot I would say at best you would get half dice as if you had moved. I could be wrong here but that is my take.
Sort of - under ordinary circumstances you can absolutely shoot at full effect on the turn you deploy, and maschinengewehr is also fair game. Remember, deployment is NOT movement.

The issue here is deploying directly into close combat. If you do that, then I'd say no firing, as you are already within 4" of the enemy and thus already engaged. The close combat is going to be devastating enough, no need to pile on with firing too.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Truscott Trotter »

IIRC the OP said shoot instead - I assume he then deployed further away than 4"?

Peter
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Peter »

Re handgrenaten: I wouldn't allow it from deployment, as there is a cost for springing a combat like this at such close range.

Peter

Neil Todd
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Neil Todd »

Munin wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:09 am
Neil Todd wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:05 am
3) no I don't believe you can shoot or maschinengewehre because you can't shoot. If you could shoot I would say at best you would get half dice as if you had moved. I could be wrong here but that is my take.
Sort of - under ordinary circumstances you can absolutely shoot at full effect on the turn you deploy, and maschinengewehr is also fair game. Remember, deployment is NOT movement.

The issue here is deploying directly into close combat. If you do that, then I'd say no firing, as you are already within 4" of the enemy and thus already engaged. The close combat is going to be devastating enough, no need to pile on with firing too.
I agree deployment isn't movement and you can normally shoot at full effect, I also agree that because he has deployed into combat he has lost the chance to shoot, we off set that by removing any cover bonus if both sides are in the same terrain and remove any defensive LMG bonuses.

Neil Todd
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Neil Todd »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:12 am
IIRC the OP said shoot instead - I assume he then deployed further away than 4"?
I didn't make that assumption :lol:

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I just skipped a logic step to save time 😊

All the other suggestions are worth playtestong in theory but I don't beleive they are necessary as a straight 3-1 is likely to be sufficient.

Rich has rules on the no defence bonus as they are both in woods and no movment dice..

I see no logical reason to penealise the defenders by removing their LMG bonus.

There is no mention of such removals in the ambush rule and that also allows you to go straight into combat

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Qns about close combat from deployment and in woods.

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:08 am
3.) Yes and Yes no restrictions for MW in woods
Not quite clear about this answer - are you saying that I could simply have shot at him? There is a conundrum here in that you have to be within 4" of somebody in wood in order to see them, but that automatically forces you to engage them in close combat. This precludes the springing of an ambush, surely (see below)?
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:08 am
4.) Interesting question - RAW it would appear not as you need to move to use the rule - but common sense says the Germans were all hiding waiting their chance to spring on the enemy so they would throw hand grenades in that situation.
At the time, we resolved this by saying that you couldn't throw grenades safely in woods as they would bounce back off the trees - we didn't find the rule about having to move, or being more than 4" away in order to throw a grenade. Personally, I cannot see why you would not pop out from behind a tree, lob your spudmasher, and pop back behind said tree again. You also make an interesting point that we did not consider at the time - could this have been played differently - eg firing first before engaging in close combat - as an ambush?
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