Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

Post Reply
bellebsc
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by bellebsc » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:38 pm

Hi John.

Yet again some more questions. I seem to over read the rules even though I've had them long enough. Yet I sometimes miss silly things so please bear with me.


Q1
Page 83 section 2 .C

Cavalry unformed after winning a melee may not move again until the next turns movement phase .
I played it as the next turn but I'm thinking it may be the following turn. So let's say the cavalry became unformed after their melee on turn 7 then it would be turn 9 before they can form up?

There nothing about infantry and that's what got me thinking that cavalry are harder to control.

Q2

Any unit involved in the charge phase be it support, being charged and did NOT fire can they then fire in the fire phase?

Q3

I have 2 or more columns within my firing line/ artillery . One column decides to charge as the brigade is not on assault orders, the columns are within such a close distance that the attacking unit barley moves forward to represent moving up to the charge distance. Now the rules say target priority which is the chargers but due to how close they are to other columns would you say the fires get mass targets?

Appreciate your thoughts John.

Thanks
Ricky

User avatar
Polish Lancer
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:49 pm

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by Polish Lancer » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:38 am

bellebsc wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:38 pm
Q1
Page 83 section 2 .C

Cavalry unformed after winning a melee may not move again until the next turns movement phase .
I played it as the next turn but I'm thinking it may be the following turn. So let's say the cavalry became unformed after their melee on turn 7 then it would be turn 9 before they can form up?

There nothing about infantry and that's what got me thinking that cavalry are harder to control.

My reading of this is that the cavalry in turn 7 finish as unformed. If their brigade obey orders (activates) then at the start of your turn 8 movement phase you have reformed.

Q2

Any unit involved in the charge phase be it support, being charged and did NOT fire can they then fire in the fire phase?

Don't see why you can't providing you are still in place at the end of the charges phase or melee result. Each situation may be very different, thus I don't think their is a definite yes or no.

Q3

I have 2 or more columns within my firing line/ artillery . One column decides to charge as the brigade is not on assault orders, the columns are within such a close distance that the attacking unit barley moves forward to represent moving up to the charge distance. Now the rules say target priority which is the chargers but due to how close they are to other columns would you say the fires get mass targets?

Well it started as a massed formation (within 5cm) and the lead unit is still being given support, so on impact if it is still within 5cm, then my view is that it is a massed target

Archdukek
Posts: 4649
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by Archdukek » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:20 pm

Hi Ricky,

On Q1 I would agree with Polish Lancer, it's the Movement Phase of the immediate next turn, that's turn 8 in your example. The penalty for cavalry is that they can't move at all in the next turn's Charge phase to wheel or counter charge if they succeed in the Charge Procedure as far as I can see.

For Q2, if the unit didn't fire in the charge phase then it can fire in the fire phase assuming it has an eligible target. Obviously if charged and contacted for Mellee they can't since that's part of the Mellee process. However, I struggle to think why a unit would not use d fens E fire when it could.

As to Q3 if the second column is within 5cm[3"] of the charging column when defensive fire is determined then yes they are a massed target.

John

bellebsc
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by bellebsc » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:09 am

Thanks both.

Again it was just curious why Mr Brown singled out the cavalry only in that paragraph as it also effects infantry hence the question. As he does mention in page 83 section 2 B in the movement phase unformed UNITS are restricted to reforming or a retire move, again the word UNITS covers all but yet as I said he singles out cavalry in 2C which reads to me the following turn as DB has already stated section 2B. ??

As for defensive fire, sometimes holding your fire is prudent but my question was more about that I and others in the game have read it as units involved in a charge can take no other actions , so yes you may be supporting but you could also be a hesitant support who dies not have the angle to fire.

Thanks again John and polish lancer

thomalley
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:40 pm
Location: Nags Head, NC

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by thomalley » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:28 pm

Interesting. A hesitant unit can only fire straight ahead and a unit in defense and in support distance must be use for support. So if the attacker doesn't have a supporting unit in front of the defenders hesitant support, can the support still fire at the attacker?

nikjen66
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:20 pm
Location: Cambridge UK

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by nikjen66 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:14 pm

Have I misread something. I thought the table for melee outcomes determined when units were unformed as a result of the melee???

And, that any unit having to reform had to spend its next movement phase rallying (or retiring unformed) before it could move/charge etc??

What you seem to be suggesting is that this rule doesn’t apply to cavalry who became unformed as a result of a melee???

Have we been playing this wrong? 😳😳

wireme61
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by wireme61 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:05 pm

We have played this also as Turn 7, Melee victory take ground unformed. Turn 8, if obeying orders; No charge or counter charge movement allowed, can reform in movement phase, so no movement allowed except to reform unless retiring unformed. Turn 9, may act as normal in charge or movement phase. But the note about Cavalry does leave it open to interpretation.

Mark

bellebsc
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by bellebsc » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:46 pm

Perhaps Mr Brown can give some insight in why the cavalry has its own section as the above section 2b covers all units.

DCRBrown
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by DCRBrown » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:16 pm

All,

Q1. Cavalry unformed after winning a melee may not move again until the next turns movement phase .
I played it as the next turn but I'm thinking it may be the following turn. So let's say the cavalry became unformed after their melee on turn 7 then it would be turn 9 before they can form up?


A - They may reform in the next movement phase. Any unit unformed after winning a melee may also reform in the next movement phase, (which is the next turn's phase). The use of the term cavalry is not intended to mark any difference to infantry, it's simply there to remind players not to move cavalry back after a melee, including trying to evade, which some test-players seemed to do almost automatically. Though is now probably not necessary! ;)

Q2. Any unit involved in the charge phase be it support, being charged and did NOT fire can they then fire in the fire phase?

No - if you are involved in the Charge phase you cannot take any action/s in following phases. See p26/27.

Q3. I have 2 or more columns within my firing line/ artillery . One column decides to charge as the brigade is not on assault orders, the columns are within such a close distance that the attacking unit barley moves forward to represent moving up to the charge distance. Now the rules say target priority which is the chargers but due to how close they are to other columns would you say the fires get mass targets?

A = Massed.

DB

bellebsc
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Melee reforming/ firing after charges/ mass column

Post by bellebsc » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:19 pm

Appreciate you getting back to us. I'm simply not seeing the trees for the woods as I've read page 26 and 27 so many time before. Also the cavalry after melee is the way I've played exactly as you stated but again sometimes you can look at a rule section and over analyze it.

Once again thank you Mr Brown, John and polish lancer for your input.


Ricky

Post Reply