Forests vs Orchards

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

BaronVonWreckedoften
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:27 pm

Not sure how relevant this is for CoC (perhaps someone with a better knowledge of "modern" ballistics could chip in?), but certainly in the H&M era, orchards were not highly regarded as defensive positions and were avoided if possible, because the softer woods of fruit trees had a much greater tendency to splinter when struck by projectiles.
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 6799
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:11 pm

Indeed there is already a rule for this where mortars are concerned , but not for other shooting.
p 46 had to search to find it tho
Any troops in woodland or orchards will be treated as a Close
Range target due to the increased effect

Contrarius
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Contrarius » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:32 pm

Woods are usually surrounded by a mix of short self-seeded trees, bushes and other undergrowth. These are what cut visibility dramatically: orchards don’t tend to have these.

Orchards are managed, meaning most of the undergrowth between the trees/bushes is cleared. This is not the case with most woodland, where it is mainly reduced light from the canopy that restricts heavy undergrowth.

To my mind the 12” and 18” view ranges when within the wood or “light orchard” seem reasonable as written; the 6” visibility into orchards from outside does, however, seem a little short, unless you assume there is some sort of perimeter fence which cuts LOS. We do need to bear in mind that most gamers’ orchards are not going to be very large. I’m always amused to see those model ploughed fields that measure 6” x4” (passable as a vegetable patch, but not much else) and ‘orchards’ that aren’t much bigger.

donglewwe
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by donglewwe » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:30 pm

No surprise: It all comes down to the players agreeing on the impact of the terrain, which is at the core of the Lardies mindset.

BaronVonWreckedoften
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:43 am

Contrarius wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:32 pm
We do need to bear in mind that most gamers’ orchards are not going to be very large. I’m always amused to see those model ploughed fields that measure 6” x 4” (passable as a vegetable patch, but not much else) and ‘orchards’ that aren’t much bigger.
Yes - most orchards I've visited would easily cover most/all of a typical CoC table!
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

User avatar
DougM
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:22 am

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by DougM » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:07 am

Is worth pointing out that fields were often very much smaller prior to the widespread use of tractors and other mechanised farming. Most of the fields you will see in Europe and the UK are many smaller fields ploughed together.
---------------------------------------------
https://aleadodyssey.blogspot.com/
---------------------------------------------

User avatar
oozeboss
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:25 am
Location: In the Shadow of the Temple of Mir-Anda, Sydney, Australia

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by oozeboss » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:18 am

You want to go to Japan some time, where rice paddies are more often than not quite literally the size of the average Australian back yard. We sometimes lose perspective of just how intimate some physical features can be compared to our contemporary sense of space and proportions.
"We are all worms.
But I do believe that I am a glow-worm."

Winston Churchill

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 6799
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:20 am

oozeboss wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:18 am
You want to go to Japan some time, where rice paddies are more often than not quite literally the size of the average Australian back yard. We sometimes lose perspective of just how intimate some physical features can be compared to our contemporary sense of space and proportions.

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." :lol:

batesmotel34
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 12:14 pm

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by batesmotel34 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:50 pm

Anyone know if the size of fields/open areas in the bocage would be at all typical of field sizes in general in NWE?

I think that the spacing for hedgerows ran 150-300 feet apart which would be 15-30" on the table for CoC, so definitely not postage stamp terrain. (See https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/06/1 ... ce-part-i/ for a map of an area of bocage (with scale) as well as a quote on hedgerow spacing giving 50-100 yards apart.)

Chris

Contrarius
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Contrarius » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:47 am

The CoC groundscale is 12" = 40 yards, thus a 6" x 4" field is 20 yards by 13.3 yards. My neighbour's vegetable patch is larger than that.

In Anglo-Saxon and Norman times it was assumed by law in England that a family required 60 to 120 acres to support itself. In Medieval times French, German and Polish farmers were all taxed on the basis of a single household owning between 40 and 60 acres. An acre is defined as a strip of 220 yds by 20 yds, as much as a yoke of oxen could plough in a day.

So our 6" x 4" field represents 1/16th of an acre, or roughly 1/640th of what a medieval farmer of the poorer ilk would own.

It's easy to forget that crop yields were much lower in the past, and one of the reasons for the high population density and smaller field size in SE Asia was that rice paddies provided about 5 times (if memory serves) the energy output by area of a European crop such as barley.

Post Reply