Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

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JOHN BOND 001
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by JOHN BOND 001 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:49 am

Here is the previous thread when this subject was nutted out.
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:50 pm "Cannot believe we have played this wrong for 3 years" viewtopic.php?f=35&t=9035&hilit=deployi ... 061b6742d5

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Greg Bradfield
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Greg Bradfield » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:54 am

So what is basically being said is deployment and activation are different and there are 2 interpretations.

1. On a 2 a section deploying may fire and on an activation it may also fire. On a 3 a JL deploying with his section, the section may fire and he may then influence them with his CIs and on activation they may not fire and may only be influenced by JL 's CIs to fire.

2. On a 2 a section deploying may fire and on an activation it may also fire. On a 3 a JL deploying with his section, the section may not fire without being instructed by the use of CIs and on activation they may not fire and may only be influenced by JL 's CIs to fire.

Clearly a divided camp here. Who prefers which?

For me it is 2

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Truscott Trotter » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:29 am

What you are missing is that when
activating on a 1 you activate any team
On a 2 you activate the section
On a 3 you activate the JL

Deployment is different
On a 1 you deploy an independent (support) team NOT any team
On a 2 you deploy the section and JL but the JL is NOT activated
On a 3 you deploy the same section and JL as 2 above but the JL IS activated

So similar but different

Gun-Pit Paul
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Gun-Pit Paul » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:23 am

So basically

Deployment is the same as Activation, except they cannot move (that is how I read it)
or have I got it wrong?

Paul

Richard
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Richard » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:59 pm

There is no lack of clarity here.

When a unit deploys it may fire. It does not need to be activated in order to do so, it deploys and it fires. When it deploys with a Leader on a 3 it may fire. The Leader may also use his Command Initiatives and if that involves invoking a national characteristic, such as machinegewehr, then that is fine.

This means that a unit deploying is in the optimum position of firing AND using command initiative. This is because that is the moment when the leader has maximum control.

Is that now clear? If not then please ask away.

Rich

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john de terre neuve
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by john de terre neuve » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:31 pm

Thanks god that is over, this argument could be likened to one of how many angels can fit on a pin!

What Rich has confirmed was absolutely obvious from the RAW!

John

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JOHN BOND 001
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by JOHN BOND 001 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:31 pm

Thank you Richard :)

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Seret
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Seret » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:40 pm

john de terre neuve wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:31 pm
What Rich has confirmed was absolutely obvious from the RAW!
John, I don't think it was obvious at all. Everybody was pretty surprised when Rich played it that way in the BoW video, they'd been playing it differently for years.

The rules say that when a JL deploys "He may immediately use his Command Initiatives to command or activate any of his men in his command range" which I'd always interpreted to mean that, like any other activation, he then uses a CI to activate his unit to fire. But if his unit is able to fire without being activated, what exactly can he then activate them to do? They can't move, and they can't fire or go on overwatch because they've already fired. So why do the rules say that he can activate them? If Rich is now saying that firing on deployment is not an activation, then does that actually mean he could put them on overwatch after they fire? Or that they could fire twice? I hope the answer to both of those is "no". Or is firing on deployment actually an activation, but one that happens without command dice or CIs?

I still think it's more logical and consistent just to treat deployment like any other activation, except that you can't move. So much simpler. I like simple.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Truscott Trotter » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:46 am

Firing on deployment uses a Command dice either 1,2 or 3 but not a CI.

The JL's CI can then be used for non activation actions so national characteristics, grenades or squad antitank weapon or transfer men.

If they don't fire then he can put them on overwatch or tactical.

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Seret
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Seret » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:57 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:46 am
Firing on deployment uses a Command dice either 1,2 or 3 but not a CI.
1 or a 2 makes perfect sense, no argument there. But you can't activate a unit with a 3. You can activate a leader, and he can activate a unit, but it'll cost him* a CI.

Unless you can activate a unit on a 3, but only when when deploying and only to fire. But it doesn't count as an activation, or maybe it does? But either way the JL can now do things he normally can't. See why I reckon this is inconsistent? If you're going to introduce something to the rules which is different from how they work for the other 95% of the game, it should be to fix a problem or do something that improves them. I'm not seeing that here, which is why I'm being a bit resistant to the idea. I don't really see the point in playing it that way, except if you want to make troops from some nations a tiny bit more effective on the phase they deploy.

I mean, it's not really going to make a big difference either way. We're talking about a change that would only affect some nations, only gives them a couple of extra dice, and only for one phase. So not really a big deal, and if you bump into a player that plays it differently from you I'm sure we could all come to an agreement about it.

*Or her, Reg!

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