Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

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GeneralGray
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Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by GeneralGray » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 pm

Hi,

I am looking to find out if anyone knows where to find or has made sharp practice army list(s) for the Brunswick Corps from the Hundred days time period. I.e. The Infantry, Avant Garde skirmishers, Cavalry (Hussars / lancers) and artillery units.

Thanks.

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Captain Reid
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by Captain Reid » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:52 am

Brunswickers in the Peninsula seems as close as it's got:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5120&p=43180&hilit ... ick#p43180
Faith! If they tried to outrun a Hielandmon, they stood but a bad chance, for Whash! went the broadsword.
- James Thompson, 78th Foot.

The Saindoux Campaign, 1757, my French and Indian War blog

Cerro Manteca, 1811, my Peninsular War blog.

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:16 am

As I said in the other thread on Brunswickers in the Peninsula, I'm hoping to pick up a load of second hand Brunswickers at Salute 2018 to create both Peninsula and 100 Days forces. My research suggests that most of the Peninsula veterans went into the light infantry half of the Avante Garde* and a cadre of the Leib Battalion; according to "von Pivka" (Osprey MAA 167), the Peninsula Hussar regiment remained in British service until well into 1815, and the 100 Days Hussars and the Uhlan squadron were all newly-raised, as were the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Line and 1st, 2nd and 3rd Light Battalions, and all of the artillery.

[* The Duke had returned from exile in England to start rebuilding his forces in late 1813, and the two Gerlente Jager companies of the Avante Garde were raised by the Spring of 1814. The rest of the army was raised by the end of that year. ]

I've put in a preliminary list for the infantry, based roughly on the Peninsula list, with a couple of tweaks to reflect actual performance during the 100 Days. Note that none of the units are classed as "elite" and the 1st-3rd Light Battalions do not qualify as light infantry. Theoretically, the light infantry of the Avante Garde was there to provide musket-and-bayonet support to the Gerlente Jager; however, if it is considered that it won't unbalance the game, the light infantry could deploy up to two groups of 6 skirmishers, as well as the four groups of 8.

Not having a set of the rules to hand, I'm not sure about this, but should the Duke of Brunswick count as a "prominent leader"?:

Avante Garde Gerlenete Jager
Type: Light Infantry, Points Value: List 10
Weapon: Rifle, Size: 6 (up to two groups)
Formation: No Shock, First Fire: Yes, Controlled Volley: No
Crashing Volley: No; Step Out: 2; Drill: -
Characteristics: Any ideas?

Avante Garde Light Infantry
Type: Light Infantry, Points Value: List 9
Weapon Musket, Size: 8 (up to 4 groups)
Formation: Always; First Fire: Yes; Controlled Volley: Yes
Crashing Volley: 2 ( size 8 groups only); Step Out: 3: Drill: 3
Characteristics: As above - maybe Sharp Practice and Stubborn to reflect Peninsula experience?

Leib Battalion
Type: Regulars, Points Value: List 7
Weapon: Musket, Size: 8
Formation: Always, First Fire: Yes, Controlled Volley: Yes
Crashing Volley: 3, Step Out: 2 Drill: 3
Characteristics: As above - Sharp Practice and Stubborn to reflect Peninsula vets?

Line or Light Battalions
Type: Regulars; Points Value: List 6
Weapon: Musket, Size: 8
Formation: No Shock; First Fire: Yes; Controlled Volley: First only
Crashing Volley: 0; Step Out: 2; Drill: -
Characteristics: Stubborn

Artillery - both horse and foot gun crews would count as List 6.

Cavalry - I'm still working on.

Contrarius
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by Contrarius » Thu May 17, 2018 11:10 pm

Any progress on the Brunswick Cav?
There are only two formations, the Hussars and the Uhlan squadron.

Don't see why you have 'Formation: No' for Brunswick Line Inf. Sure, they were mostly newly raised troops but they put up a pretty good show at Quatre Bras and Waterloo. Having said that, 6 points per group does sound quite a lot.

BTW it's "Gelernte" Jaeger, literally "Learnéd" - as in experienced (think "ge-learned").

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Captain Reid
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by Captain Reid » Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:16 am

I've put in a preliminary list for the infantry, based roughly on the Peninsula list, with a couple of tweaks to reflect actual performance during the 100 Days. Note that none of the units are classed as "elite" and the 1st-3rd Light Battalions do not qualify as light infantry. Theoretically, the light infantry of the Avante Garde was there to provide musket-and-bayonet support to the Gerlente Jager; however, if it is considered that it won't unbalance the game, the light infantry could deploy up to two groups of 6 skirmishers, as well as the four groups of 8.
It's fine them not being Elite, few formations will ever be (though unit ratings are of course relative to time and place not an absolute thing and your Brunswickers seem to me to have a bit of a hard deal compared to other troops in the lists)
Not having a set of the rules to hand, I'm not sure about this, but should the Duke of Brunswick count as a "prominent leader"?:
No. He would not really be commanding the very few numbers of troops that a SP game represents (generally from about a half company to a half battalion's worth depending on the figure:man ratio, which may be 1:1 but may be as high as 1:5). He might feature in a one-off situation when you might then want to build in some kind of rule where his death impacts the force overall.
Avante Garde Gerlenete Jager
Type: Light Infantry, Points Value: List 10
Weapon: Rifle, Size: 6 (up to two groups)
Formation: No Shock, First Fire: Yes, Controlled Volley: No
Crashing Volley: No; Step Out: 2; Drill: -
Characteristics: Any ideas?
These should probably have Formation - always. Decent Skirmish Troops almost always do in the Napoleonic lists and these were at least decent. That'd bump them to 11 points. They should probably have Sharp Practice too but you could argue not. You can limit the number of groups if you like but at the lower ratios there's no real need to and in fact it can give unrealistic forces if you do.
Avante Garde Light Infantry
Type: Light Infantry, Points Value: List 9
Weapon Musket, Size: 8 (up to 4 groups)
Formation: Always; First Fire: Yes; Controlled Volley: Yes
Crashing Volley: 2 ( size 8 groups only); Step Out: 3: Drill: 3
Characteristics: As above - maybe Sharp Practice and Stubborn to reflect Peninsula experience?
These, I presume are in fact Type: Regulars (ie fighting as Line Troops in 8s). You should probably give a Light Infantry (ie Skirmish Troops in 6s) option too, because they were capable of skirmishing. I'd suggest perhaps reversing Crashing Volley and Step Out so they are 3 and 2 respectively. As Regulars they will be 6 points a Group with SP and Stubborn, which seem fitting enough.

As Skirmish Troops, they'd presumably be Light Infantry, Formation - always, First Fire - yes, Step Out - 2, Sharp Practice for 8 points a Group.
Leib Battalion
Type: Regulars, Points Value: List 7
Weapon: Musket, Size: 8
Formation: Always, First Fire: Yes, Controlled Volley: Yes
Crashing Volley: 3, Step Out: 2 Drill: 3
Characteristics: As above - Sharp Practice and Stubborn to reflect Peninsula vets?
These should be 6 points rather than 7. They'd be 7 points if you felt inclined to give them Drill - 2, which they should probably have, being drilled and veterans.
Line or Light Battalions
Type: Regulars; Points Value: List 6
Weapon: Musket, Size: 8
Formation: No Shock; First Fire: Yes; Controlled Volley: First only
Crashing Volley: 0; Step Out: 2; Drill: -
Characteristics: Stubborn
These seem hard done to, even as relatively freshly raised. Regulars are very seldom Formation - No Shock and would usually get CV and Drill at 3. Perhaps: Formation - always, First Fire - yes, Controlled Volley - first only, Crashing Volley - 3, Step Out - 3, Drill - 3, Stubborn for 5 points per Group.
Faith! If they tried to outrun a Hielandmon, they stood but a bad chance, for Whash! went the broadsword.
- James Thompson, 78th Foot.

The Saindoux Campaign, 1757, my French and Indian War blog

Cerro Manteca, 1811, my Peninsular War blog.

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Tue May 22, 2018 11:50 am

Contrarius wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:10 pm
Any progress on the Brunswick Cav?
There are only two formations, the Hussars and the Uhlan squadron.

Don't see why you have 'Formation: No' for Brunswick Line Inf. Sure, they were mostly newly raised troops but they put up a pretty good show at Quatre Bras and Waterloo. Having said that, 6 points per group does sound quite a lot.

BTW it's "Gelernte" Jaeger, literally "Learnéd" - as in experienced (think "ge-learned").
Sadly, no not yet. The guy who was selling me all the Perry Brunswickers got them all out of his storage area, lined them all up to see what he actually had, and then thought: "Nah, I'm gonna keep them. Sorry, mate!" This meant I had to wait until Partizan last weekend to get fresh stuff from the Perrys themselves - and then, only for the Peninsula Brunswickers. You're right, it is just the Hussars and the Uhlan squadron, but I was trying to find some comparisons to work from (eg nobody in the rule book lists has "lance" as their principal weapon). At QB they seemed eager enough to "mix it" with the French cavalry, but not terribly good when they did (I'm told that both units were newly-raised, as the Peninsula veterans remained in British service until after Waterloo). I assume they would both be scouting cavalry, with sabre for the former, but what weapon for the latter? I certainly wouldn't give them "Tally Ho!"

I take your point about the Line/Light Battalions - that was maybe a bit too harsh, but I didn't want to make them too impressive. Whilst they weren't too bad at QB and Waterloo, equally they weren't terribly positive either - I think Mercer mentions their officers and NCOs having to thump them to get them to move up to cover off casualties, for example. I made the AG and Leib Battalion slightly better quality to reflect the presence of Peninsula veterans.

(And thanks for the German lesson - I'm not sure if that's my mistake or if I've copied it from someone else, but now you've explained it, it makes sense!)

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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Tue May 22, 2018 12:10 pm

Captain Reid wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm
Not having a set of the rules to hand, I'm not sure about this, but should the Duke of Brunswick count as a "prominent leader"?:
No. He would not really be commanding the very few numbers of troops that a SP game represents (generally from about a half company to a half battalion's worth depending on the figure:man ratio, which may be 1:1 but may be as high as 1:5). He might feature in a one-off situation when you might then want to build in some kind of rule where his death impacts the force overall.
Do you think so? All accounts of him at QB suggest he was, if not quite "micro-managing", then certainly attempting to set an example to relatively small units of men (possibly even individual companies in the case of the Avante-Garde and Uhlan squadron). If you don't mind, I think I may go with my original idea and see how that plays out.
Captain Reid wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm
A-G jaeger: These should probably have Formation - always. Decent Skirmish Troops almost always do in the Napoleonic lists and these were at least decent. That'd bump them to 11 points. They should probably have Sharp Practice too but you could argue not. You can limit the number of groups if you like but at the lower ratios there's no real need to and in fact it can give unrealistic forces if you do.

A-G light infantry: These, I presume are in fact Type: Regulars (ie fighting as Line Troops in 8s). You should probably give a Light Infantry (ie Skirmish Troops in 6s) option too, because they were capable of skirmishing. I'd suggest perhaps reversing Crashing Volley and Step Out so they are 3 and 2 respectively. As Regulars they will be 6 points a Group with SP and Stubborn, which seem fitting enough.

As Skirmish Troops, they'd presumably be Light Infantry, Formation - always, First Fire - yes, Step Out - 2, Sharp Practice for 8 points a Group.
I'm happy to go with your thoughts on these two elements; as you say, they were quite decent troops, containing pretty much all the Peninsula infantry veterans, and certainly acquitted themselves well in the skirmishing in the Bois de Bossu and around Hougoumont.

Captain Reid wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm
Leib Battalion: These should be 6 points rather than 7. They'd be 7 points if you felt inclined to give them Drill - 2, which they should probably have, being drilled and veterans.
There is some question over how many of this unit were veterans or not; people have generally assumed they were, because of the similarity in uniform between this corps and the Brunswick Oels from the Peninsula, but I don't think there would have been enough survivors to provide more than a cadre after the A-G had been filled up. I always found it interesting that they served alongside the A-G throughout the Waterloo campaign, but were brigaded with the Light Battalions, rather than the Line Battalions, suggesting a higher level of quality. Well, maybe.....

Again, given your extensive experience with the rules, I'll go with your suggestions and see how they work out.
Captain Reid wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:11 pm
Line/Light Battalions: These seem hard done to, even as relatively freshly raised. Regulars are very seldom Formation - No Shock and would usually get CV and Drill at 3. Perhaps: Formation - always, First Fire - yes, Controlled Volley - first only, Crashing Volley - 3, Step Out - 3, Drill - 3, Stubborn for 5 points per Group.
As I said to Contrarius, I was trying to avoid making these units too "robust" given Mercer's comments about them, and the absence of much in the way of offensive performance in the Waterloo campaign to draw upon (they did seem to be ok defensively, though). I'll try your suggestions and see if I feel that they make them "about right" in combat.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to rate the lancers, given my earlier comment that I can't find any mention of lances in the French army list?

Thanks to both you and Contrarius for your helpful suggestions and the time taken to peruse my ramblings. Currently, for the 100 Days, I'm looking at a "light column" of two groups of 6 A-G jaeger, four groups of 8 A-G light infantry, two groups of 8 hussars, one group of 8 uhlans, and a horse gun. Perhaps the Duke in overall "command" as a Level 4, a Level 3 commanding the light infantry, and all other officers Level 2s, plus a sergeant (Level 1) per pair of groups and one each i/c of the Uhlans and gun crew.

Contrarius
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by Contrarius » Wed May 23, 2018 4:18 pm

Even though the Brunswick line and light battalions were raw I’d have thought the march of several hundred kilometres across Germany would have licked them into some sort of shape. I was still toying with the idea of them being classed as conscript - just to see how they play. The carnage of battle must be pretty stupefying to anyone experiencing it for the first time, so I wouldn’t hold that against them.

As for cavalry, it’s well known that you can’t really teach a decent horseman in just a few months, and the lance is especially tricky to master. Can’t recall where it was I read (Nosworthy?) that an experienced sabre unit could take apart an inexperienced lancer unit almost without getting short of breath.

Looking forward to trying out a few Brunswickers in a Sharp game tomorrow, so will look back carefully at your list ideas :-)

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Wed May 23, 2018 5:33 pm

Thanks - post how you get on in this thread and give us your thoughts.

Contrarius
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Re: Sharp Practice - Brunswick Corps army lists

Post by Contrarius » Fri May 25, 2018 6:55 am

My Brunswick conscripts ended up doing really well. I put them behind a wall (hard cover) and they just got on with it, withstanding artillery hits and musketry from a Frenchie unit. Meanwhile, all my British Peninsula veterans were in the open being shot to ribbons by low-quality French infantry. Really must learn how to use my 95th Rifles properly as they were the first to get shot up (planning to raise Avant Garde rifles and muskets).

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