Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

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john de terre neuve
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Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by john de terre neuve »

Hi,

We had our second game at the Hobby Bunker last night and although I thought I had the rules down more questions arose. We played the Watchtower raid.

Fate Cards: My sense of the rules is that when a Noble is activated that is when you can play Fate cards, either by the active player (offense) or the non active player (defense). My opponent felt that you can play a Fate card anytime. This just not make any sense to me, but when you read the rules this statement makes the interpretation a little tricky:The non-suit cards, those with no image, may be played at any time including during one of your opponent’s Noble’s activations. Of course the whole problem was with the damn Step Forth card. In Derek's recent postviewtopic.php?f=26&t=1626, I came to the conclusion that options 1 and 2 are the only reasonable ones. But the question on when a Fate card can be played is still a little unclear. Can a Fate card be played at any time or only after a card has been turned to activate a Noble?

Step Forth card: A fascinating card. Take this example, a Saxon noble is activated. He is close to a British unit, but it is uncertain whether he will make contact to combat until he throws his dice. He says he is going to try to engage combat. The British player does not want to take a chance, so he plays the Step Forth card and activates his unit to move away. This is correct? Also is the order of activation the most recent card first. For example in the above the Step Forth card is played last, so the activated British noble goes first ( I am presuming that he has the number of activations as is his status). The Saxon Noble then follows. Part 2, does the Saxon Noble have to carry out his hopeless charge or can he change his mind. What if he plays some Fate cards to modify his activation, does he lose them. I know some of these things were touched on in Derek's post, but I was not 100% on the answer.

Noble's Movement and the effects of terrain: I know that skirmishing troops avoid the 1st pip of penalty on terrain modifiers. I somehow was under the impression that Nobles ignore all terrain modifiers when moving on there own. But I can not find this in the book. Is this correct?

Detaching and Attaching Nobles: I know that Nobles can detach or attach to one group for free in a turn without using an activation. Can they do both on one card activation. For example, a status two Noble is attached to an unit, he commands two groups. He detaches and uses his 1st activation to move one unit 2D6 ( he had to detach as he was just outside of 3" so could not issue a command). He then re-attaches to the 2nd group and uses his 2nd activation to charge and combat with himself adding 2D6 to the combat. I thought this was a little gamey, but I thought I would ask to see how other do it.

ZoC: If a unit charges but fails to throw sufficient pips to contact, I presume the closest they can come is 4" because ZoC. Is this correct?

Movement through varying terrain: I am sure this has been dealt with a million times but I thought I would ask for a formal answer. A unit has to cross multiple different terrain types. Do you throw 3D6 and then remove the number of pips for the worse possible terrain type in the path (3, 6 or 9) an then move that amount. I favour that approach but I suppose you could throw 1D6 sequentially to see what happens.

Border Tower Raid: We played this game last night, I thought it pretty tough for the Saxon player to win. I presume the game is over if the patrolling Noble makes it back to the border. But what stops the Noble from leaving the 2 units he is with and running back by himself, aside from the shame of it!

Thanks for looking through my questions, I am definitely not of the rules lawyer persuasion, but there are two players in every game and I believe it only reasonable that questions that arise are clarified to the best of our abilities.

John


ps I should get a post up with some photos tomorrow.

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Derek H
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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by Derek H »

john de terre neuve wrote:Hi,

Border Tower Raid: We played this game last night, I thought it pretty tough for the Saxon player to win. I presume the game is over if the patrolling Noble makes it back to the border. But what stops the Noble from leaving the 2 units he is with and running back by himself, aside from the shame of it!
Nothing. But your opponent will make sure you never hear the last of it (I know I did it once when the game had just come out and someone mentions it just about every game) and without the Noble to Rally shock and play cards the units he leaves behind are going to get very badly handled and the Saxon player will probably get himself a couple of months of unopposed raiding.

I'll have a go at some of your other questions later, if nobody else does it in the interim, But now I'm off to the pub :D
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john de terre neuve
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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by john de terre neuve »

Thank you Derek, Enjoy the pub, it is Friday night after all!

John

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by LancasterMatt »

I'll have a go at answering your questions:

Non-suit cards can be played at any time - but obviously some can only logically be played at specific times. So for example, "A True Aim" is only played when missiles activate and "Armour Bright" only after a lord has taken a hit in combat. Step Forth did raise some questions and am happy with the ruling if case 1 or 2 in the answer given.

So this suggests that you should pause after saying you are going to charge. If the opponent does not declare a Step Forth then you proceed to throw the dice and play cards.
Also my take is that the original player should not be forced to complete his originally declared action. For example some cavalry might be wanting to charge some militia in the rear - but they play Step Forth and turn to face and form Shieldwall. I think it fair that they reconsider their options.

Charging and Zone of Influence:

I think troops will stop when the dice run out, not at 4" where the Zone of Influence starts. The exception are skirmishers (who can't charge) these must stop before contact so I play it that they stop at the Zone of Influence if to the front. Because there is no Zone of Influence to the side or read I have stopped them at about 2" for no better reason than it feels about right!


Nobles and Terrain:
I have played it where Nobles get benefit of being mounted and pay the appropriate penalty for terrain.Not thought through all the implications - for example, would I consider the Status 1 Noble commanding skirmishers to be harassing troops when crossing terrain?

Detaching and Attaching:

I don't think there is a problem with a Noble or Lord activating a group, moving, then activating a second group in the same turn. Of course a Status 2 noble would need to move with the first unit or he would run out of activations before he activated the second.

Border Tower scenario:

This one does depend quite a bit on where the raiders come on and with how many units. Many scenarios become very skewed if lucky, or unlucky, setup dice are rolled. Played this one a fortnight ago and managed a +6 victory as raiding Irish.

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by Richard »

John

I'm away from home today and can't type properly on my phone. I'll be home tomorrow evening so will reply in full then.

Rich

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by john de terre neuve »

Thanks Matt. I will go through each of your answers

Non-suit cards can be played at any time - but obviously some can only logically be played at specific times. So for example, "A True Aim" is ...................
I think I am asking a different question, I am asking if a card can be played at any time, ie outside of a Dux card being played. I believe that you can only play Fate cards in response to an Noble activation card (or missiles) being played, either as an phasing player modifier or as a response by the non-phasing player.(yet another perusal through the rulebook gives me this answer on page 37 of the tablet edition under reminder of the sequence part 5) Second question is what order does each activation take place. I think the last card played takes the first action. Third question is can the phasing player change his mind and does he lose his cards if they have been played.So another look at Derek's post and Richard's reply satisfies me in respect to the last two questions. So to answer my own question:
So to answer my own question, cards are only played when an activation takes place, the card played can interupt and cause a move to be made before the phasing player, and the phasing player can change his move and pull back his card(s)if interupted.

Charging and Zone of Influence: I think troops will stop when the dice run out, not at 4" where the Zone of Influence starts. The exception are skirmishers (who can't charge) these must stop before contact so I play it that they stop at the Zone of Influence if to the front. Because there is no Zone of Influence to the side or read I have stopped them at about 2" for no better reason than it feels about right![/b]

Thanks


Nobles and Terrain: I have played it where Nobles get benefit of being mounted and pay the appropriate penalty for terrain.Not thought through all the implications - for example, would I consider the Status 1 Noble commanding skirmishers to be harassing troops when crossing terrain?

But what do the rules say?

Detaching and Attaching: I don't think there is a problem with a Noble or Lord activating a group, moving, then activating a second group in the same turn. Of course a Status 2 noble would need to move with the first unit or he would run out of activations before he activated the second.

Slightly different question was asked, the noble is not moving, he is detaching and attaching.

Border Tower scenario:This one does depend quite a bit on where the raiders come on and with how many units. Many scenarios become very skewed if lucky, or unlucky, setup dice are rolled. Played this one a fortnight ago and managed a +6 victory as raiding Irish.

I agree, as the British player I got the best starting position and the Saxon player got the second worse starting position.Image Here is looking from the Border Tower which is not in the photo. Both units set up mid terrain with the British in the left and the Saxons to the right of the photo. The river was a major obstacle (-3pips), the swamp was medium (-2pips) and the small hills were minor (-1pip).

Thanks for your answers,

John

ps Rich, I will look forward to your answers.

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by JimLeCat »

Hi John,

Just to chip in with my comments:-

Fate cards - unsuited fate cards can be played at any time. End of. The cards themselves will tell you when to play them. Suited cards are played by nobles, either when he is activated by his card (or a step forth card) if on foot, or on the cavalry card if mounted. The only exceptions are that a carpe diem may be played as a response to a darting blow and rage may be played by any pictish unit on their card as well as by a noble.

Charging and Zone of Influence - I agree with LancasterMatt on this, except that I'd just stop skirmishers 1" short rather than at the edge of the Zone of Influence.

Nobles and Terrain - the rules don't say anything about it, which I take as meaning that they don't get any penalty. Remember that the penalties are for groups of men trying to stay together, which is why skirmishers get a smaller penalty and formations get bigger penalties.

Detaching and attaching - it costs a noble nothing to attach to or detach from a group, only to move on his own. However, I am puzzled by the question. You said you wanted to detach because his command radius was only 3", but that only applies if a noble is in combat. Otherwise his normal command radius applies, whether or not he is attached to a group.

Does that help?

Cheers,
Jim

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john de terre neuve
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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by john de terre neuve »

Thanks Jim,

Charging and Zone of Influence - I agree with LancasterMatt on this, except that I'd just stop skirmishers 1" short rather than at the edge of the Zone of Influence.
Thanks I will go with that it seems.

Nobles and Terrain - the rules don't say anything about it, which I take as meaning that they don't get any penalty. Remember that the penalties are for groups of men trying to stay together, which is why skirmishers get a smaller penalty and formations get bigger penalties.
Sounds good that is how it works in CoC.

Detaching and attaching - it costs a noble nothing to attach to or detach from a group, only to move on his own. However, I am puzzled by the question. You said you wanted to detach because his command radius was only 3", but that only applies if a noble is in combat. Otherwise his normal command radius applies, whether or not he is attached to a group.
Ahh, missed that one. Did not realise it was only combat.

That is great, any one want to offer an opinion on the movement question through varying terrain.

Movement through varying terrain: I am sure this has been dealt with a million times but I thought I would ask for a formal answer. A unit has to cross multiple different terrain types. Do you throw 3D6 and then remove the number of pips for the worse possible terrain type in the path (3, 6 or 9) an then move that amount. I favour that approach but I suppose you could throw 1D6 sequentially to see what happens.


John

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by Richard »

Okey dokey, I have escaped from the wicked witch's castle and can now answer these properly on a keyboard as opposed to a tiny phone (which with with my sausage fingers is less than ideal!)

I have cut and pasted your text and will put my answers within that below, so hopefully all will be clear. I've put my comments in red. Which is ironic.

You asked:
Fate Cards: My sense of the rules is that when a Noble is activated that is when you can play Fate cards, either by the active player (offense) or the non active player (defense). My opponent felt that you can play a Fate card anytime. This just not make any sense to me, but when you read the rules this statement makes the interpretation a little tricky:The non-suit cards, those with no image, may be played at any time including during one of your opponent’s Noble’s activations. Of course the whole problem was with the damn Step Forth card. In Derek's recent posthttp://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1626, I came to the conclusion that options 1 and 2 are the only reasonable ones. But the question on when a Fate card can be played is still a little unclear. Can a Fate card be played at any time or only after a card has been turned to activate a Noble?

Richard says: I think we need to forget the Step Forth card for a moment and get the basic ground rules straight. This is covered on page 28 of the rules where it says the following:

"Suit cards...can only be played by an active Noble of either side" In other words, in the main Dux game you can only play suit cards when a Noble is activated. The non-suited cards can be played at any time: that could be when your Noble is activated or during your opponent's activation. So, for example, your archers (who don't have a Noble) can use Fleet of Foot, or when your opponent attacks you and inflicts a hit on your Noble you can play Armour Bright. Of course you can also play Armour Bright in your own activation. There are some variations to this in Raiders, specifically cavalry, but that's a different conversation.


You say:
Step Forth card: A fascinating card. Take this example, a Saxon noble is activated. He is close to a British unit, but it is uncertain whether he will make contact to combat until he throws his dice. He says he is going to try to engage combat. The British player does not want to take a chance, so he plays the Step Forth card and activates his unit to move away. This is correct?

Richard says:
Yup, good so far
.

You then say:
Also is the order of activation the most recent card first. For example in the above the Step Forth card is played last, so the activated British noble goes first ( I am presuming that he has the number of activations as is his status). The Saxon Noble then follows. Part 2, does the Saxon Noble have to carry out his hopeless charge or can he change his mind. What if he plays some Fate cards to modify his activation, does he lose them. I know some of these things were touched on in Derek's post, but I was not 100% on the answer.

Richard says:
This is an interesting card, particularly as lots of people seem to be getting into all sorts of "what if's" with it. This is really simple. The British Noble plays his turn as though his card had been played before the Saxon player. So when the British player has done what he wants to do, the Saxon player continues the game as though his card has now just been dealt, i.e. AFTER the British Noble's card. So he certainly doesn't have to do what he was planning to do before; he doesn't have to play any cards he was planning to play, he can make completely fresh choices about what he now wants to do.


You ask:
Noble's Movement and the effects of terrain: I know that skirmishing troops avoid the 1st pip of penalty on terrain modifiers. I somehow was under the impression that Nobles ignore all terrain modifiers when moving on there own. But I can not find this in the book. Is this correct?

Rich says:
Now that is funny. Until you asked I was sure that this was not the case. Now you ask it does seem to ring a vague bell. So I checked, and no, I cannot find anything about Nobbles moving faster.


You asked:
Detaching and Attaching Nobles: I know that Nobles can detach or attach to one group for free in a turn without using an activation. Can they do both on one card activation. For example, a status two Noble is attached to an unit, he commands two groups. He detaches and uses his 1st activation to move one unit 2D6 ( he had to detach as he was just outside of 3" so could not issue a command). He then re-attaches to the 2nd group and uses his 2nd activation to charge and combat with himself adding 2D6 to the combat. I thought this was a little gamey, but I thought I would ask to see how other do it.

Rich says:
Yes, attaching and detaching is free. Imagine I am with you and your mates, then I run off and join Bill and his mates because things are getting tough over with him. I am a big geezer who everyone knows, I am a famous leader, when I turn up and shout "follow me lads" they will do so. I don't need to spend any initiatives saying "goodbye" to you or "introducing myself" to Bill. You all know who lives in the big hall and wears all the gold kit.



You ask:
ZoC: If a unit charges but fails to throw sufficient pips to contact, I presume the closest they can come is 4" because ZoC. Is this correct?

Rich says:
No, you can move right up to within a thousandth of an inch of an enemy, if that's where your movement takes you to, and not be in contact. You just cannot enter and leave a ZOC in the same turn.


You say:
Movement through varying terrain: I am sure this has been dealt with a million times but I thought I would ask for a formal answer. A unit has to cross multiple different terrain types. Do you throw 3D6 and then remove the number of pips for the worse possible terrain type in the path (3, 6 or 9) an then move that amount. I favour that approach but I suppose you could throw 1D6 sequentially to see what happens.

Rich says:
I actually use a bit of a combination of both. Imaging the obstacle is some boggy ground which reduces movement by one pip per dice. That ground is 5" away from your unit. You roll 4, 2 and 6. I'd let you move 4" with the first dice as you can move that full distance without getting into the bog, but then the 2 and the 6 are both reduced. The truth is, you can use any system you like for this, so long as you're consistent in a game. But that's the one I prefer.


Border Tower Raid: We played this game last night, I thought it pretty tough for the Saxon player to win. I presume the game is over if the patrolling Noble makes it back to the border. But what stops the Noble from leaving the 2 units he is with and running back by himself, aside from the shame of it!

Rich says:

Well, if he does run off he'll certainly "win" the scenario, but he rather condemns his men to being activated last in each turn and that may well mean his losses are increased. You'd also get people making chicken noises in any game he appeared in in future!

A general point on the scenarios. The randomisation of the terrain will mean that you get some games which "aren't fair". Or at least they wouldn't be fair in a stand up game with 1500 points. However, the fact that this is one game in an on-going campaign means that at times you'll get the break, at other times your opponent will. The question is how well you use that opportunity to turn the tide of the campaign in your favour. I see that inherent "unfairness" as a big leveling factor in a game which can be uneven. The Raiders, for example, need some lucky breaks early in their campaigns. The rules are designed to allow that to happen and not be fair.


Thanks for looking through my questions, I am definitely not of the rules lawyer persuasion, but there are two players in every game and I believe it only reasonable that questions that arise are clarified to the best of our abilities.

Rich says:
I TOTALLY agree! Fear not, I am always happy to answer queries and provide clarifications, if not always as quickly as I'd ideally wish. I don't consider any question to be "daft" or unworthy of answer.

Hope that helps. Please feel free to ping back any further Q's.

Rich

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Re: Second game at the Hobby Bunker and some more questions

Post by john de terre neuve »

Thank you Rich,

I am happy with all your interpretations of the above (and f course where you are the rules writer they hold some weight!).

I have some reservations though about Nobles suffering the same terrain modification penalties as groups. I know groups of men in the dark ages were a rabble, but I suspect that there was still some unit cohesion. Because of this I think a single man, moving on his own could go a little quicker then that rabble.

If I remember correctly a SL/JL in CoC moves without terrain penalty. This is probably where I got the idea in the first place.

John

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