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Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:44 pm
First game today against a chum who took it easy on me.
If a leader is in a fight and his group is wiped out does he stay engaged, we could not find out what happened to a leader after combat.
Also if their group was down to say two and three kills were made do you still roll for leader or are they automatically hit and has to roll to see what happens.
If multiple over kills is it still just one roll to see what happens.
Ps I got very lucky and opponent also wanted me to win so I became hooked but the Roman's seem alot easier to win with than the Gauls.
Re: First Game
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:10 pm
Interesting that you had a group get completely wiped out without routing or breaking first. Usually groups will be obligated to withdraw or break before getting wiped out and leader has options there.
I can't seem to find it at the moment but I believe if his group is wiped out while he is attached he is gone too.
On page 59 When talking about close combat results:
"If one Group is entirely wiped out, then any further casualties should be removed from any supporting Groups."
- This is where I expected to see it but no mention of leaders in this circumstance.
On page 67 When talking about a broken group's path being blocked:
"If no path is available that takes them further from the enemy, the Group and any Leader present will be removed from play and a Force Morale Test made for a Group wiped out and any Leaders killed."
- This leans in direction of a dead leader, but I also think this rule on page 70 could apply to your situation:
"A Leader who has been fighting in a Close Combat may choose to step back and join a supporting Group after any round of combat. If this is done, a Force Morale Test must be taken for Loss of Face for the Leader."
If so. After group got wiped out you would roll as normal (7.6.7 Leader Casualties page 62) but if he survives he could under the above rule "Step Back" to a supporting group.
Regarding your second question, I believe you will still roll for leader casualties for either close combat or ranged fire. I have not seen anywhere mentioning that leaders ever get counted and removed as a regular casualty. Even when "hit" they are usually only wounded and survive to fight again.
"7.6.7 Leader Casualties page 62
If a Leader contributes his dice to a [close] combat, then there is a chance that he is wounded or killed if the Group he is attached to loses one or more figure. Roll a D6 for each Leader present in a combat. If the roll is under the number of figures killed in that round of combat, then the Leader is hit.
When a Leader is hit, roll a D6. On a roll of 1, the Leader is badly wounded and their Status Level is reduced by two for the current game. On a roll of 2 to 6, the Leader is lightly wounded and their Status Level is reduced by 1 for the current game.
If a Leader is reduced to a Command Initiative level of 0, they are considered dead."
I think if he has not been reduced to 0, he might get left standing there and move to join another group on his next activation.
Congratulations on first game,
Re: First Game
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:49 pm
It will def be the first of many
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:05 am
A group being wiped out without first breaking due to shock is a remarkable result which hardly ever happens. If he isn't killed by the test for leader casualties then he simply moves to any other Group in the Mob. That's the only way to kill Leaders in the game.
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:18 am
Yes we may have done it wrong.
A level III leader was in charge of two groups of mounted nobles that made it round to the Roman flank.
Fortunately this was before the Gauls for troops made it on to the table so Roman's could do a little bit of shuffling.
One unit of poppo riders got flanked and fled off the table, the second with the big nob leading it hit the side of one of my legion groups after scaring off my aux archers. Managed to hold out then turn to face and closed ranks which put fight back in my favour.
Second lot of gaul cavalry lost their last two or three men leaving the leader on his own.
Next gaul group was some archers right on the other side of the table so we really didnt know what to do with him.
I thought I was in a good position, formation of three legion groups holding the line, left flank secured by aux in woods, right flank protected by archers in some rocky ground. I even had the card to remove a deployment point.
Gauls placed three deployment points surrounding me but non were rolled to be ambush points and I removed one on my right flank when Gauls said they were deploying cav from it. They then had to deploy from one further away which bought me a turn to redeploy a bit.
I got to two others before Gauls so blocked those off.
Then cavalry made a great move across the table scared my archers off who had not quite made it into the rocks and hit the flank of a hastily deploying legion group.
I got lucky and broke the Gauls with few Roman losses.
I think if the Gauls had continued to take plt shots at me whilst their mobs built up fervour for the attack, then brought cavalry on to hit me in rear I would have been in trouble.
TBH if the cav had broke the Roman group they hit then I would have had to decide if I turned to face them or the mob that was forming to my front.
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:25 am
Blimey. Sounds like a close run thing.
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:23 pm
Speaking as the chump in question, who wasn't taking it easy.... just getting hammered as usual..
Status III Gaul leader, with two units of noble cavalry, they went separate ways to fight different units, both were wiped before breaking, guess its not too hard for a unit of 6 who get hammered - first went for a skirmish unit that scarpered (as you do) and ended up getting hit in the flank by a unit of Roman legionaries, first round killed a couple and a few shock, second combat saw them take more kills than they had survivors (it was quite a good roll, iirc 5 sixes and a five, of which our armour stopped zero. unit evaporated.
second fight ended up similar, casualties and close to breaking but not enough to end the fight, second round obliterated them - this one had the leader, in the end we had two options, given the Romans were in contact with him after the unit vanished in a puff of unconvincing smoke..
1. he fights on alone, he does afterall generate dice, with any hits against him obviously being against him - question that stopped that was "whats a leaders armour?" - guessing not stated as it doesn't matter
2. assume hes now a thin paste on the floor and remove him - which is what we ended up doing
there were no other groups under his command nearby so nowhere he could jump to with the loss of face.
Also I see the bit about lone leaders being unable to be a target for ranged weapons, but what about melee? what happens in a leader say 5" from the nearest friendly unit is in the movement range of some bad people, possibly on ponies, can they charge him? (well move into contact with him), or does he automatically move out of the way as if hes not actually been noticed?
my cavalry had a decent chance to flatten the Centurion leading the Romans, but since we couldn't find out how/if this was allowed they didn't
1st game with the barbarian deployment options, hence managed for once to get my cavalry behind the enemy line and bar some poor dice they may have managed to do something.
have noticed its not uncommon for combat to end with equal or off by one causalities and combat to continue, it often being the second round this triggers thats the decider. have found not many units get into "withdraw due to excess shock", they are either just under that level and then get murdered, or simply get obliterated for daring to challenge the glory of Rome.
Incidentally, while my Gauls (well Anglo-Saxons pretending to be Gauls) have yet to win a game, I have yet to have a game I didn't enjoy
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:51 pm
Leaders just automatically go to the nearest friendly force. They can’t fight alone. They can’t be targeted on their own, so if they pass the test for not being affected they move away.
With your Gallic cavalry, if you’re attacked in the flank you can evade. Best to always do so. I’m slightly surprised by what’s ha-penning with your Gallic nobles. They should be riding into combat, hitting hard and then automatically withdrawing after two rounds of combat. Six kills in that time, with their medium armour, still sounds a lot. I have tended to find that Gallic nobles can make two good attacks, after which they are pretty much spent and then held back to simply guard flanks and rear.
Can I ask what’s happening to you? Which I appreciate is a big question, but I’m trying to get a feel for what’s occurring.
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:10 pm
ahhh, didn't realise they could evade, thats down to me then on that one. Though to be honest if what else I had planned had worked them being squished would have been worth it (it completely disrupted the Roman line for example with legions facing in three different directions, just couldn't get in quick to follow it up)
the first lot into combat hit a legion in the flank, rolled a bucket of dice and when the dust cleared there was a faint "ha-ha" from the Romans, the second round was roughly the same - didn't realise the Noble Cav had to withdraw so they got stuck and then the Romans invited them for lunch.
the aim was to hit the enemy line to the rear, try to wipe a legion unit, or at least crippled it, with one and see of an Auxiliary unit with the other, cause chaos and then ride out the other side to go and hide somewhere.
them getting squashed in the fight was basically the enemy rolling enough dice over two rounds that they went down, the first round typically killing two while we killed one, so triggering round two as neither side took enough shock to be forced back (usually a handfull only), then the second fight basically finishing them off.
a legion that manages to turn to face and rolls enough sice and a six strong unit with medium armour won't last long.
I made a range of mistakes, the auto withdraw bit I need to read up on - issues is at best one game a week so not exactly overly practised. ditto not realising they could evade...
so a lone leader will automatically go and join the nearest unit, regardless of where they are?
Re: First Game
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:24 pm
Your nobles can evade if attacked in the flank or rear. The rule for pulling off after two rounds of combat is a self-defence mechanism that is particularly powerful for Gallic cavalry as the have stewards, so they strip off shock pretty quickly and then come back for more.
As a top tactical tip, I’d say keep your mounted nobles together. They can also give support in close combat, so can give you a really powerful punch.
What sounds good is your attempts to disorder the Romans. It’s just a case of hitting hard with one body of men and then being nimble enough to hit hard with a second. For that reason, I tend to use my nobles as harassing skirmishers at first, get rid of their javelins, and then go in with the warriors. After they have rattled the Romans, send in the cavalry as a coup de grace.
Yes on the leader, but I’m still a bit concerned as your leader being left hung out to dry should be so rare it almost never happens. But that may be because you split your nobles up.