Tanker table queries

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Peter
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Peter »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:42 am
So no vehicles should be small AND low profile?
Then why have both characteristics?
C'mon guys
Low profile affects acquisition, small affects the chance to hit.

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BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften »

OK, one last time - these tanks are small, but the ones out there are far away.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMiKyfd6hA0
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Peter wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 1:30 pm
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:42 am
So no vehicles should be small AND low profile?
Then why have both characteristics?
C'mon guys
Low profile affects acquisition, small affects the chance to hit.
My point exactly - so now we have eliminated the argument that small is enough - we are left with why a Stug is low profile and not the lower Hetzer?
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be a typo.” It's simply elementary, my dear reader.

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bandrsntch
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by bandrsntch »

I'd be willing to grant the Hetzer both the Low Profile and Small characteristics, but Fast! At 26 mph it was no speed demon. That's got to be a mistake.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Good catch I hadn't noticed that. I do not think there should be any LP AFV's that are fast as their barrel bangs into the ground.............. :lol: :P

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Vulusmaximus
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Vulusmaximus »

bandrsntch wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:28 am
I'd be willing to grant the Hetzer both the Low Profile and Small characteristics, but Fast! At 26 mph it was no speed demon. That's got to be a mistake.
Got to agree with you on the speed issue :ugeek: . The Hetzer IMHO should actually rate as a Slow Tank. It has a HP to Ton ratio of 10 which is really shabby, down with the Hunting Tiger (The King Tiger should also be Slow, same engine as Hunting Tiger).

For comparison:
- Middle of the road tanks such as the PIV is 11.8, the Stug III 12.4, Sherman 13.3.
- Fast tanks such as the M10, M18, Panther and T34 are all above 15 HP per tonne (the hellcat having 23).
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Truscott Trotter »

The Cromwell has 21.4 hp (16 kW) / tonne and the Hetzer Power/weight 10.2 PS (7.5 kW) / tonne as you say
So perhaps it was a misprint and instead of Fast tank they meant Low Profile?
Nick?

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SteveBurt
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by SteveBurt »

I agree - if we use the Hetzer again I'll rate it small and low profile, but not fast.

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Nick
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Nick »

Odd as it may seem, we had similar discussions when we were putting the rules together. You have to remember that WaT is designed as a game and not as a catalogue of technical capabilities (rivet counters look away now). Just because something falls into a particular category doesn't necessarily mean it is used in that way in the game. We apply some common sense and experience to get the best outcome. To tweak a famous saying; technical knowledge is identifying that a tomato is a fruit. Common sense is not putting them in a fruit salad.

So, just because something appears to fit within a certain criteria doesn't necessarily mean that we use that label in the game. This applies to strike values, armour values and, of course, to characteristics. You might argue, based on dimensions, that the Hetzer is small and low profile. At just over 7 feet it is not as tall as the StuG, which does count as low profile in the rules. The StuG shouldn't really be low profile based on it's actual dimensions, but the combat use, eye-witness accounts and our desire for historical feel meant that it really needed to have that characteristic applied to make people use it in the way we felt was more historically accurate. The Hetzer is definitely small, but making the Hetzer low profile AND small would offer it some significant advantages that, we felt, were just too great. Low profile makes it harder to acquire, and the small makes it harder to hit. Combining them both makes for a tough cookie. The Hetzer needed to be tough, but not THAT tough. We went for harder to hit over low profile, because you get the bonus each time you are shot at. With low profile, once you are acquired, the 'to hit' calculation is as per any other tank, but we felt that making the Hetzer small, and therefore hard to hit every time you shoot at it, was more what we wanted to represent, and probably gave the Hetzer a slight advantage when compared to the StuG. And the fact that it has a FAST tag is less about top speeds but more about encouraging players to shoot and then move, which fitted more neatly how we felt Hetzers should be modelled within the game.

So it's not all about statistics, it's about game design: encouraging and shaping playing behaviour and rewarding certain activities.

I hope that makes sense.

Nick

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Archdukek
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Re: Tanker table queries

Post by Archdukek »

That's a very interesting and informative explanation Nick. I suspect your reply might warrant being stickied in some way so that it appears at the top of the section to preempt similar questions in future. A topic on your design thinking, possibly eleaborated on in a Special article, would be very welcome I think.

John

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