Brigade sizes

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DD1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:30 am

Brigade sizes

Post by DD1 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:32 am

I've played about 8 games now, 3 in the last 5 days, and am loving the rules. All who have played, have been impressed and think this is the "one" set to rule them all. Well done Dave!

I do think the faltering brigade rule encourages the use of a lot of small brigades. I think a % of units retreating/retiring would be a better way of modeling brigade morale, rather then a static 2 retreating/1 routing unit. A 7 unit brigade is no more resilient then a 2 or 3 unit brigade. Plus, you get additional ADC's.

We have also changed the re-roll rule for faltering brigades. We don't allow re-rolls on that table. Seems a bit easy to avoid the really bad results.

DCRBrown
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by DCRBrown » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:37 pm

DD1,

Glad you are enjoying the rules! :)

You raise a couple of points about brigade morale both of which were discussed (in some depth!) in play testing.

One variant of the rules was exactly as you state for the Faltering Brigade roll, no ADC attachment was permitted. A player simply rolled and that was what he got! But we permitted a reroll in the end mainly for simplicity (i.e. consistency) but tweaked the faltering brigade table to make it slightly worse, thus adjusting slightly for that potential brigade attachment reroll.

As for brigade resilience, the game design as you have probably noticed, relies little on numbers and far more on morale. The game is designed around the shock or impact of fire upon a unit rather than how many actual men or percentage of a unit have become casualties. E.G. If say round shot takes out 25 men in one go ( :shock: ) that is just as impactive upon a 400 man battalion as it is upon an 800 man battalion. As I said elsewhere I think the what % of casualties a unit has lost rule is one of those aspects I think we wargamers have become accustomed to, not because it was common to a Napoleonic battlefield but because it is a common Napoleonic wargame rule. The same goes for brigade morale, thus one rout impacts about as equally upon a 2 unit brigade as it does upon a 5 unit brigade, its simply the shock of that decisive defeat impacting upon both men and commanding officers.

Your other point regarding small brigades is well made and is something that I'll address in the FAQ pdf, perhaps imposing a levy upon small brigades in the points system or limit small brigades to just one per division. I'm open to any suggestions on this front.

DB
Last edited by DCRBrown on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Archdukek
Posts: 4374
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by Archdukek » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:01 pm

To my mind deliberately choosing small brigades to maximise the number of ADCs is gamey behaviour. If you base your forces on historic precedent then small brigades should be less of an issue if both sides are broadly similar. So brigades in the Peninsula War tended to be smaller while those in the Central Europe campaigns like 1809 were often much larger.

So far I have found 2-3 unit brigades, usually cavalry, to be very fragile since often in our games there is no supporting unit available to fall back on. Larger brigades have been more resilient in the sense that there are more opportunities to fall back on a friend and thus limit the distance of retrials and routs. If the frontline gives way there are more units available to plug any gaps.

John

DD1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:30 am

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by DD1 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:47 am

Hey John, being Aussies, we need definitive rules to stop exploiting things. Gentlemanly behavior isn't a a national characteristic!!! Must be the convict heritage.

Its easy enough to rectify, as long as both sides are the same, shouldn't really mater.

To deal with these 2 issues (small brigades and re-rolls on faltering brigades) we might let large brigades (5 plus units) have a re-roll, and not let small brigades (<=4) have it.

Thanks Dave for the detailed response, its good to get the underlying reason for a rule. Helps to determine if the rule represents (in each of our opinions) the condition being modeled.

Markconz
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:44 am

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by Markconz » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:18 am

Regarding gaminess with taking small brigades, perhaps just charging something like 25-50 points per Brigade would be a useful disincentive.

So Brigadiers would cost (with 50 points base cost):

Standard: 50
Excellent: 100
Poor: 35

baxterj
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by baxterj » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:32 am

to be honest, we have one player do the scenario with both players picking a side at random, so there is no point setting up unrealistic OBs

DCRBrown
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by DCRBrown » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:14 am

Markconz,

I think brigadier costs may be a way forward here.

By introducing a brigadier points costs, perhaps even quite high, players would be discouraged from creating numerous small brigades.

Perhaps even differing costs for infantry, cavalry and artillery. Thus cavalry & artillery brigadiers may be slightly cheaper to reflect that these brigades could, historically, be relatively small, whereas infantry were not.

Of course the Russians would need to be restricted on the number of cossack brigades that they could field! Perhaps just one. ;) )

DB

Markconz
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:44 am

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by Markconz » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:57 am

Thanks Dave, I'll suggest the locals give it a try.

Mufferz
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 2:40 pm

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by Mufferz » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:29 pm

Of course, official army lists would address this issue ;)

ady

baxterj
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: Brigade sizes

Post by baxterj » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:24 am

why does every set of rules 'need' army lists?

In reality infantry brigades should be a minimum three battalions, cavalry two regiments. just make these a minimum and it should stop people gaming the system.

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