Firing through members of the same unit

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MLB
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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by MLB » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 am

But here’s a thought. I have two men behind a hedge visible to the enemy, the remaining men are within 4” but are back from the hedge, so out of sight. If the two men take fire, what’s to stop the bullets passing through the hedge and hitting others? I will have light cover for all of them, so doesn’t that balance things out - hedges don’t stop bullets and the other men are close enough to the targeted men to receive some of the fire? Now if the other men were behind a house then they cannot be targets because houses stop bullets, but a hedge?
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Seret
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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Seret » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:07 pm

MLB wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 am
what’s to stop the bullets passing through the hedge and hitting others?
If nobody can see them, nobody was aiming at them. Same as covering fire against a terrain feature: unaimed fire doesn't cause casualties.

In real life yeah, maybe someone would get unlucky and catch a bullet. But I don't think you want to start modelling fluke hits in the game.

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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by oozeboss » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:39 pm

MLB wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 am
I will have light cover for all of them, so doesn’t that balance things out - hedges don’t stop bullets and the other men are close enough to the targeted men to receive some of the fire? Now if the other men were behind a house then they cannot be targets because houses stop bullets, but a hedge?
Pure percentages. The chance of getting hit by stray fire is pretty remote.

And bullets can pass through houses, depending on how solid they are. In my army days we had the fact that a 7.62mm SLR - and the vast majority of our potential enemies' equivalents - could shoot mortally effectively through the trunks of trees or your average brick wall, so doing the cinematic stand and shoot routine in infantry combat situations was tantamount to ensuring your own rapid demise.
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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by MLB » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:42 pm

Seret wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:07 pm
MLB wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 am
what’s to stop the bullets passing through the hedge and hitting others?
If nobody can see them, nobody was aiming at them. Same as covering fire against a terrain feature: unaimed fire doesn't cause casualties.
I agree and that’s how I’ve been playing it, but I recall watching a game at CanCon a few years ago where the opposite was happening and when I queried it their answer was ‘if you can see some of the squad then the whole squad could take casualties, the hedge doesn’t stop bullets’. I wasn’t convinced but I’ve wondered how others interpret it and play it.
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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Munin » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:40 pm

My general assumption has always been that if a man on the firing line gets hit, his mates grab him by the ankles and drag him out of there, and someone else steps up to take his place. I have no problem removing casualties from the rear even if those troops technically cannot be seen.

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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Quackstheking » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:04 am

Surely there is a difference between “cannot be seen” and “cannot be hit”?!

If a section is on a hedge line with some members within 4” but back from the hedge line but out of LoS then they could be hit by applying the within 4” rule.

However if the split was half of the section behind a house and half not, then even if within 4” then I would say those out of LoS couldn’t be hit but could take shock.

The exception is leaders who can be hit wherever they are placed on the abstraction that they are constantly moving.

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Greg Bradfield
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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Greg Bradfield » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:34 pm

Ok now even Rich is doing blob firing! and not just that but he has the team hang back from the windows and has the entire section fire at a unit outside giving them light cover. Check Beasts of War Let's Play Chain of Command the collective pig farm game at about 31 minutes into the game.

https://youtu.be/8Tvyw1h-PSY


Then later at about 1 hour 1 minute he has a broken section retreating and a another section coming up the Russians are firing at the retreating section but because the up coming section is within 4 it to takes hits too but being further away it gets light cover bonus from the retreating section as the Russians are firing through them.

Could be because he has to remember so many rules he often combines rules.

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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by chris cornwell » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:03 pm

I have no issue with blob firing.
CoC is not a 1 to 1 skirmish game, it’s representing teams. If private snuffy has a jammed rifle or trips on a stone it’s not individually represented, so whether he is 6 feet away from his mate, or 6inches we don’t know. It’s another abstraction.
in 28mm the ground scale allows a bit of leeway, like any other game the only thing that really matters is consistency, as long as all players play the same, who cares?
If I played in 15mm it would be different.

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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Archdukek » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:19 pm

Greg Bradfield wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:34 pm
Could be because he has to remember so many rules he often combines rules.
Rich spent the best part of 5 days with the Beasts of War lads discussing and filming videos of both Chain of Command and Sharp Practice interchangeably. As he has freely admitted in earlier posts he sometimes mixed up the rules from the two systems. He also reserves the right to adapt the rules on the fly to give a good game and what he considers a realistic outcome! :roll: :)

So don't treat everything you see in the videos as reflecting what the rules actually say. Then again you are always at liberty to tweak the TFL rules to reflect your view of historical events. Just always agree it with your opponent in advance. :D

John

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Re: Firing through members of the same unit

Post by Len Tracey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:55 am

Agree with the contention that, providing all players agree, whether you blob fire or not is up to each group.
Personally, I hate blob firing and don't do it for reasons mentioned previously, but that's just me. Another consideration is that by using RAW tends to make larger squads more cumbersome, which was exactly the problem they faced when deployed on the battlefield.
Its one of the reasons the awkward Italian half-platoon sections with two squads disappeared; it was a very difficult organisation to manoeuvre and command in battle. Especially for such ill-trained NCO as in the Italian Army at the time.

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