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SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:01 pm
by Iorwerth
What is the difference between a SdKfz 250 and a SdKfz 251? Is it that the SdKfz 250 was a recon vehicle rather than a troop transport and carried a recon team, while the SdKfz 251 was designed as a troop carrier for panzergrenadiers, and so can carry a section (or a single team?) i.e. is a way of transporting your troops around, whereas the 250 can't, as it has its own dedicated recon team already on board? I

n AFV stats they are the same, and in the original support list they cost the same (same on the consolidated arsenal), but the 250 comes with a recon team with a LMG while the 251 comes empty. So why take the 251? What does it give you extra to make it worthwhile? Is it that it can transport your sections?

Going on to the other SdKfz versions, from a bit of limited research it seems a 234 was a half-tracked armoured car and so waqs not a troop transport, while the 222 was a wheeled version of the 234, again unable to transport troops. Is that correct?

If you want to transport troops around in a vehicle, do you therefore need to take SdKFz 251s (if you discount the kubelwagen etc)?

Lastly, I presume the other versions of the 251 can also transport troops (sections?), just have different armament e.g. 251/10 or 251/9 or 251/16 and so on?

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:14 pm
by Emilio
The "basic" sdkfz250 is reconnaisance vehicle. It has a 6 men crew, with 2 MGs. Five men dismount with an MG. The driver stays with the vehicle. Two 250 make a "trupp" (an squad). It was used by reconnaisance companies:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1113gp1nov41.htm

There were radio versions, support versions, mortar version and the 250/9 had a turret with a 20mm cannon and a MG.

The "basic" sdkfz 251 was an armoured personal carrier, the equivalent of the us halftrack. It carried ten men. Eight dismounted with two MGs and the driver and a machine gunner stayed in the vehicle. It was used by armoured panzergrenadier companies:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1114cgp1nov43.htm

Again, there were support, radio, mortar and engineer versions.

The sdkfz 234 is not a halftrack. Is a family of armored cars with 8 wheels. The most famous is the 234/2 Puma.
The 222 is a four wheels armored car. Nothing to do with the 234.

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:31 pm
by Seret
The 250 was an APC used by the armoured recce battalion of the panzer divisions. The 251 was used by the panzergrenadier regiments, each platoon had several of their own.

In CoC you'd field a 250 with its recce team if you want an armoured recce element that can dismount. If you're fielding a panzergrenadier platoon and want to provide one of your existing squads with an armoured transport then you'd pick the 251. A 250 only fits half a squad and they wouldn't normally be giving rides to guys that weren't in their unit.

So similar vehicle, different battlefield role.

Most of the other versions of the 250 and 251 were fire support or other special purpose vehicles, not transports. There are some exceptions though, the 251/10 was the ride for a panzergrenadier platoon HQ, for example.

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:39 pm
by Iorwerth
Ok cool, thanks.

So in game terms does a sdkfz 251 carry up to 10 figures, or do we say for KISS purposes it carries a section (or even a team)? In the game a Panzergrenadier section consists of 11 men including the junior leader, and when you purchase the 251 it has no weapons. So the one in the rulebook is missing the driver and the other machine gunner I presume Is it easier to just say it carries the section with an additional driver i.e. once the section jumps out, the vehicle can still be driven?

In the rulebook a 250 comes with a four man recon team with 1 MG plus a junior leader (presume not part of the four man team mentioned), so a total of 5, which is in line with what you have told me. So presumably when the team jump out, the vehicle can still drive around, as the driver is still in it?

So when working out the support cost for the 251's, only give them a transport bonus cost if they are the 251/1 or the 251/10? The other 251's are just mobile weapon platforms - have I got that right?

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:51 pm
by Archdukek
As Emilio has pointed out the Sdkfz 250 and 251 are different types of vehicles with different capacities and different roles.

What vehicles you choose to transport your troops will depend on what was used historically by your platoon. So for example most German infantry will be transported in trucks or have marched to the fight depending on period. They would dismount before getting as close to the enemy as in a typical CoC game leaving their transport safely in the rear. So unless you are planning on using them in a specific scenario, soft transports rarely appear.
Sdkfz 251s were also quite rare and really only used by the single gepanzert panzergrenadier battalion in a Panzer Division if that's were your platoon comes from.

The Support List in the rules is actually being more than a little generous including a 251 as a generic support choice for ordinary German Rifle platoons. Personally I wouldn't allow it, but yes if picked you can use it to transport a whole section. A Panzergrenadier squad in the rules is 10 men not 11. Historically the squad would have also had a driver and MG gunner, if you check out one of the more recent Pint Sized Campaigns you will find that Rich now allows the 251 to come with those 2 crew following a lengthy discussion on the Forum.

John

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:52 pm
by Emilio
As far as I know, in the game a panzergrenadier squad are 10 men. You can put the squad in a 251, and then dismount all, leave a driver in the vehicle, or leave a driver and a guy with one of the squads MGs.

The same for the 250. The driver cames from the team/squad. So you dismount all the guys and nobody drives, or leave one man onboard. Page 85: "transport only vehicles, such as the 251 and the kubelwagen are simple vehicles which come with no crew. Remember, you will nedd to allocate men to drive these and to crew any weapon you festoon them with".

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:57 pm
by Iorwerth
Looking at the rulebook the panzergrenadier squad is 11 men: junior leader, 2xMG42, 4xcrew and 5xrifle (but that has now changed to 6xcrew and 3xrifle + Junior leader).

As to driver it is the squad itself that has to supply the driver. That makes it simple!

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:30 pm
by Archdukek
No the MG 42 is the weapon not another man, each has a 2 man crew in the rulebook so 4 in total, plus 5 riflemen and the JL to make 10. You never count the weapon in the teams.

The change to 3 man LMG teams in the German lists really applies to Early and Mid War, by the end of the War the crew was reduced to 2 but so was the overall squad size, so it's swings and roundabouts. I prefer 3 crew myself.

John

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:28 pm
by jdg
I seem to remember Rich stating that when you dismount the PzGr section you need to leave one man behind to drive the 251if you want to move it.

Re: SdKfz 250 and SdKfz 251 and others

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:34 pm
by Iorwerth
Archdukek wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:30 pm
No the MG 42 is the weapon not another man, each has a 2 man crew in the rulebook so 4 in total, plus 5 riflemen and the JL to make 10. You never count the weapon in the teams.

The change to 3 man LMG teams in the German lists really applies to Early and Mid War, by the end of the War the crew was reduced to 2 but so was the overall squad size, so it's swings and roundabouts. I prefer 3 crew myself.

John
Thanks. That is good to know. I was getting that wrong!

So late war i.e. '44 and beyond, the Germans were down to two crew? Is that correct?