Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

sackatatties
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:50 am
Location: Dunfermline, Scotland

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by sackatatties »

Fair point but some of these memoirs are written from diaries as much as from memory. My father was a regular in the 4th RTR,then Fife & Forfar and then ending up as a Major in the Black Watch TA, and he still refers to Centurions as Conquerors..... Memory is a funny thing.

andysyk
Posts: 301
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:11 pm

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by andysyk »

Memory is a funny thing also troops in service often identify their own sides equipment incorrectly at the time, yet alone later whilst trying to remember. Not to mention the enemies. Also troops are fed propaganda about their own equipment especially when its first issued and more so in wartime and that is not always accurate.

Even in theatre briefings on the enemy and its capabilities have to be read with care, often they are addressing troop fears downplaying enemy capability/equipment and bigging up your own. Although they are quoted in modern histories as pure fact.

But memory is also influenced by events occurring after the event, if we learn things relating to a memory after the event we will alter it correct it if you like. As communicators we will relate a memory to our audience in terms they understand using if we know it terms they more easily understand and these will sometimes overwrite the original terms we used.

Most Tank Platoons had 2 SL.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7665
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Yup the brass certainly talked up the Sherman / Cromwell before D-Day but it took less than 24 hours before even the greenest tanker knew he was deep in the manure when it came to facing German guns - Panzer, SPG or paks

FWIW Bill Bellamy in Troop leader a tank Commanders story uses the term Firefly for the Sherman w 17 pdr - he did not have a ghost writer but it was written in 2005

EDIT found this really interesting article on the development of the Sherman I & Vc
http://panzerserra.blogspot.com.au/2013 ... -hull.html

The nickname "Firefly" is not found in wartime official documents. It was sometimes used at unit level (Brigade/Regiment) war diaries from March 1944, with another nickname being 'Mayfly'. During the war, Shermans with 17-pounder guns were usually known as '1C', '1C Hybrid', or 'VC', depending on the basic mark of the vehicle. In British nomenclature, a "C" at the end of the Roman numeral indicated a tank equipped with the 17-pounder.

PatG
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:06 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by PatG »

If we are going to rely on war diaries and personal recollections, then all German tanks are Tigers and all artillery and AT guns are 88s. ;)

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7665
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I have found wargamers very quick to dismiss 99% of all written accounts ....except those on their own bookshelves.
I have just finished reading 5 such first hand accounts of Normandy battles and only 1 mentioned a Tiger once and it was backed up by multiple accounts and official unit war diary......all falsified I am sure just to annoy wargamers.

poiter50
Posts: 649
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by poiter50 »

lol

As the OP, I am amazed how off track this discussion has become. I got my answer but I think it was on page 1.
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:14 am
I have found wargamers very quick to dismiss 99% of all written accounts ....except those on their own bookshelves.
I have just finished reading 5 such first hand accounts of Normandy battles and only 1 mentioned a Tiger once and it was backed up by multiple accounts and official unit war diary......all falsified I am sure just to annoy wargamers.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7665
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Yeah just shut up and buy the dammed Firely Pete :o :lol:

sackatatties
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:50 am
Location: Dunfermline, Scotland

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by sackatatties »

poiter50 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:17 am
lol

As the OP, I am amazed how off track this discussion has become. I got my answer but I think it was on page 1.
Chinese whispers have nothing on a wargamer's thought process :D.

If there's a point to be made about the colour of a German bread bag in WW1 you can be sure someone will drop it into a discussion on Monty's breakfast habits......

Brew Up
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:20 pm

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by Brew Up »

Ive also heard of the Sherman Vc or Ic being referred to as Charlie tank at troop level although I wouldnt quote me on that. I cant quite remember the source at the moment but If I do I'll post it up.

PatG
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:06 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

Re: Shermans and a Bazillion support points

Post by PatG »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:14 am
I have found wargamers very quick to dismiss 99% of all written accounts ....except those on their own bookshelves.
I have just finished reading 5 such first hand accounts of Normandy battles and only 1 mentioned a Tiger once and it was backed up by multiple accounts and official unit war diary......all falsified I am sure just to annoy wargamers.
And I have just read one regimental history and two unit war diaries in which it was Tigers behind every bush and 88s firing indirect what seemed like every other page. No source is 100% reliable.

You raised some interesting points about Achilles/Firefly/M10 nomenclature and it will be worth keeping them in mind when researching specific battles. In fact, I just read an account of a battle which specifically mentioned attached TDs not mentioned in the diaries and history above.

However, in an infantry based game at the level of CoC - it may be enough to say "a vehicle armed with a 17 pounder that can't be destroyed by an MG" without getting to caught up in the exact designation.

Post Reply