Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

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oozeboss
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Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by oozeboss »

My entire playing history of Chain of Command doubled last Friday night when my Panzergrenadiers got in their second (and almost certainly, their last) game before I offer them up for inevitable sacrifice at John Bond's forthcoming CoC extravaganza at MOAB in two week's time.

Both games used Scenario One: The Patrol from The Good Book, but the interpretation of the Force Support paragraph seemed completely different in the two games. Luckily (for the purposes of this contrast), my opponents both fielded platoons with a Platoon Force Rating of -1 (being a US Rifle Platoon in the first game, and a British one lead by an officer with a pistol in the second), which with my Panzergrenadier PFR of +3 gave them each an extra +4 support points. Coincidentally, the dice roll for Support was a 6 both times, which is where the weirdness kicked in (at least, from my own often myopic point of view).

The difference in interpretation is wholly focused on one single line: "On a roll of 5 or 6, List 3 is used."

In Game 1, my opponent interpreted this line to mean that our roll of a 6 meant that I would only have 3 Support Points, while he had access to 3 + 4, which granted him 7 Support Points plus access to anything up to List 7 of the Support List. So his Americans fielded an Engineer Flamethrower team from List Three, and a Forward Observer and 81mm mortar battery from List 4, while I ran with an Adjutant from List 1 and a Senior Leader from List 2.

In Game 2, my other opponent ran an Adjutant from the British List 1 and an M4 Sherman with Junior Leader from List 6 (or Support List 8 from the Consolidated Arsenal, just to confuse things completely). For the record, I ran with the 3 support point interpretation from my first game and only fielded the Adjutant and Senior Leader again.

Which leads to an obvious discrepancy in regard to the interpretation of those eleven words. Could one of the wise and willing in our community here please illuminate me as to what is the correct amount of Support Points that should have been available, and whether or not those extra 4 points of Platoon Support Rating that I conceded to the Allied platoons should also have increased their range of available support options from List 3 up to List 7?

Also, when I brewed up said Sherman with a Panzershreck almost immediately after it made its grand entrance, should there have been two Force Morale rolls for the loss of the AFV and the death of its Junior Leader?

(I should point out that I enjoyed both games immensely, and I did learn lots through finally getting some troops onto a table.)

Many thanks.

Captain W Martin
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Captain W Martin »

Its an interesting one, I hadn't thought of it before.

Im inclined to say all support points have to come from lists 1-3 to represent the limited amount of kit likely to be available for a patrol....

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Seret
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Seret »

oozeboss wrote: our roll of a 6 meant that I would only have 3 Support Points, while he had access to 3 + 4, which granted him 7 Support Points plus access to anything up to List 7 of the Support List.
Correct. The wording for the patrol game is a bit odd, but in general you get whatever your share of the dice roll is, and the weaker side also gets the difference in force rating.

Btw, for your initial games I'd suggest using something like Attack/Defend instead of the patrol scenario.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Seret is correct on both points - Patrol mission is rather limited.

Also on your Sherman question yes 2 rolls on the S%£t Happens table once for support unit dead and once for JL dead. :roll:

Tanks are very vulnerable against Germans or Yanks cos of all the AT potentially in their infantry.

Munin
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Munin »

But Seret didn't actually answer the question. It's not whether or not the opponent gets 7 points' worth of Supports, but rather the actual lists from which those Supports can be taken. I.e., does the wording of this particular scenario limit the maximum list value of any ONE Support choice to no more than 3, or is this just a poorly-worded passage and Patrol works just like pretty much every other CoC scenario in that you maximum List purchase is determined solely by how many total Support points you have available?

I've always assumed the latter (lump sum, spend as normal), but the question is a valid one.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Ahh OK good point, now I think about it we have always played it as written nothing higher than list 3
After all it is a patrol not a recon in force Soviet style :P

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Steve McG
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Steve McG »

Hi all,

Many of us have been confused by the wording with the "Patrol" Scenario.

The original question actually has two parts; 1st = How many Support Points 2nd = Which List to choose from.

The key for me is actually what is NOT said in the description. In EVERY other scenario description the attacker rolls for his "Level of Support" the defender then uses a modification of this roll.

The "Patrol" is a more equal encounter so the wording is different. It says "For Support roll 1d6. This is NOT the same as "Level of Support". It then goes on to say :

On a roll of 1 or 2, both sides may select support from List 1 (amended depending on relative Platoon Strength Ratings). On a roll of 3 or 4, they may select support from List 2. On a roll of 5 or 6, List 3 is used.

I think this can be read two ways:

1. On a 1or2 both players get 1 "Level of Support" from List 1 (modified by the relative ratings). On a 3or4 both get 2 "Levels of Support" from List 1 or 2. On a 5or6 both players get 3 "Levels of Support" from Lists 1,2 or 3. NB no selection ever to be higher than List 3.

2. As there is no mention of "level of Support", the only support points you have are those gained from the relative Platoon Strength Ratings. A roll of 1or2 means both can choose from List 1 etc.... Again No selections from a list higher than 3.

Personally I prefer the 1st interpretation (it actually gives some support options). However I know the other version gets some use. I do not know how or why people are using anything higher that list 3. That it the point of rolling 1d6 and shown above.

SO ... using the quote from the rules and the Oozeboss's first game.

A 6 means 3 support points + 4 for the difference in relative platoon ratings = 7spt pts. Now these all come from List 3 cos a 5or6 means List 3 is used.

I find having low support points AND low support list more plausible. It is unlikely that tanks etc. would added in situations described in the "Patrol Scenario"

Steve
There's a fundamental truth to our nature. Man must explore. ... Neil Armstrong

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Seret
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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Seret »

Munin wrote:But Seret didn't actually answer the question.
Yeah I did. He asked if he could choose anything up to List 7, which is correct.

Limiting choices to list 1-3 would severely suck if you had a big mismatch between force ratings. If you rolled a 1 or 2 and were facing a much better enemy then bringing 6 medics or adjutants to the fight is going to do nothing to make the game more balanced.

batesmotel34
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Post by batesmotel34 »

I agree with Seret that there isn't any restriction to list 3 or below. Rich's rule writing style is definitely not one where it is intended that you should parse them in detail like legalese in a contract (or rules by Phil Barker). There are definitely cases where the rules would be clearer if the same language was used in each case for equivalent situations. (A similar situation is where 1 allows you deploy a team whereas a 2 allows you deploy a section with its JL which could be read to imply that a team with its own JL, e.g. an AT gun, would have to deploy without its JL. Hence the Lardy slogan, play the period, not the rules.

Chris

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Re: Support Points in Scenario One: The Patrol

Post by Archdukek »

Just to add to the confusion I usually play it that the support points rolled for are restricted to a maximum of List 3, but you can spend any additional support points gained through the difference in Force Ratings as you like in accordance with the normal rules for using them. Tends to keep the support at a reasonable level for a Patrol but gives a little bit of flexibility. To be honest it is very rarely an issue.

John

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