Couple of CoC questions

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

GavinP
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:21 pm
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Couple of CoC questions

Post by GavinP »

Hi all,

Played another patrol scenario last night with my American Paras and Wehrmacht platoons. A couple of things came up,

1) Is the Force rating for the American Paras correct at +1?( I note that the British Paras rate +8 but have 3 sections, and the US Paras get +8 if they use the 3 squad organisation post Normandy. Is a single squad really worth +7??) In the patrol scenario, that basically left me selecting from support list 2 and him on 1 (we rolled a 2 although we didn't use support as we haven't got the figures yet.)

2) Regarding Anti Tank weapons used against infantry: Does the H.E. also reduce the cover 1 level as it's a "direct fire weapon"?

3) The platoon forces seem to all be full strength paper orbats, how would you suggest generating sub strength units?

The game itself wasn't that great, partly due to me making a stupid error in the patrol phase and getting 2 patrol markers locked early on, and allowing the Paras to get jump off points in the buildings. I also decided that I'd try and make use of the Machinegewehr rule (or whatever it's called) and try and attack him as I could single out a single building. His Paras were uber uber tough given elite and hard cover vs regular in soft cover, in fact I didn't kill a single one, the most I managed was 2 shock at one point. In return, I lost 2 Junior leaders, a senior leader, an LMG team and about 10 other dead and more shock than we had markers for. Even using covering fire and fire and movement in light cover, I couldn't get anywhere near him. Don't get me wrong, I love the mechanisms but I can't help but feel I'm getting something woefully wrong which left me feeling somewhat less enthused post game than before it.

User avatar
Jaedrian
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:46 am
Location: Tenessee, USA
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by Jaedrian »

I don't have my book with me so I can't answer your questions directly, but I will say this about your comments on your game. Buildings suck.
We played the patrol game and my wife was first to reach the central building with troops and I could not dislodge her. Assaults by two squads were repelled and when we reached the building, I only had one squad and could not when in close combat. And both platoons were regular. So in your case, Elites in a building would be very hard.
So you probably did it right, but that also showcases the importance of the support lists. I hope you get the models you need so you can bolster your troops. Get support that has a chance to generate smoke and that will help you maneuver so you can get around his entrenched paras.
Recon by hand grenade.
http://badkompany.blogspot.com

User avatar
John Thomas8
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:10 pm
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC USA
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by John Thomas8 »

If I'm short figures and still want to play, I generate an understrength platoon and play on. Here's an example

triangleminiaturewargaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=167

It's just a matter of getting the supports correct along with reasonable scenario victory conditions to make it a playable game. In the above example I over compensated for the small Marines platoon with too much heavy firepower, over balancing the game in the Marines favour.

Something to think about when designing scenarios.

GavinP
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:21 pm
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by GavinP »

Just thought of another point.

I have a mental issue with the use of grenades, especially when in conjunction with buildings. Small unit tactics when faced with an MG pointing out of a window would dictate flank the MG and post a grenade through the window. However, this is impossible with the rules as written as far as I can see. Moving within 4" initiates close combat, "firing" (within which I'd imagine throwing a grenade is counted) through windows requires you to be in the windows field of fire, thereby opening yourself up to getting blasted by the MG.

Its most likely that the close combat rules encompass close range grenade throwing as part of the combat, but would seem to put the attacker at an even greater disadvantage than they already are. If I can get to the wall of your building unobserved/unfired upon or in good order, you should get what's coming to you with no rebuttal.

Thoughts?

User avatar
John Thomas8
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:10 pm
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC USA
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by John Thomas8 »

That if you've maneuvered to a window unseen then close combat doesn't happen, that the attacker attacks and the survivours respond, if they're able. That's the point of maneuvering.

Unless the rules ball all that up into one step, that I'm not sure about.

JimLeCat
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:57 pm
Location: Durham, England

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by JimLeCat »

Remember, close combat is only started when there is a clear path between the two groups. If you can get to a flanking side of the building, then I wouldn't expect close combat to automatically ensue unless it is a small building with windows/open doorways on your side. Yes, you could say that you wanted to start it, in which case I'd assume that you were attempting to use whatever entrances were available. If the enemy then wanted to attack you on their phase, they could - I'd assume they were going out to attack you. Finally, if you wanted to try posting a grenade when approaching the building from outside the LMGs arc (remember it's only 90 degrees), then I'd probably allow that too, so long as your intention was to follow it up with a close combat.

Cheers,
Jim

User avatar
Tom Ballou
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:00 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by Tom Ballou »

I concur, I don't think being outside a building puts you into CC with the occupants. To engage the occupants you would have to enter the building. The 4" rule is for open terrain.

--Tom
--Tom

Never drive a car when you're dead
--Tom Waits "Telephone Call From Istanbul"

GavinP
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:21 pm
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by GavinP »

According to Rich, CC happens if there's a clear path and you're in 4".

To fire through a window you need to be in the 90 degree arc of the window, which puts you in their fire arc, and also means there's a "clear path" to the enemy initiating CC.

Saladin
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:04 am

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by Saladin »

Assaulting buildings - or a bunker - head on might look good in the movies, but in real life, it would be suicidal. That's when they'd bring up the tank - or call for indirect fire - or flank the position and force them to withdraw.

GavinP
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:21 pm
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Couple of CoC questions

Post by GavinP »

You don't have a tank, you don't have indirect fire.That's the point, I am flanking the building. Ideally I'd like to leave the whole thing alone, but the victory conditions force me to try and degrade the enemy's forces and reduce his force morale. If he chooses to stay in the building, I have to try and get him out.

Post Reply