CoCulator calculator

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

Magpie
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:29 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Magpie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:07 am

File uploaded, should be working now
CoC Calculator (Excel spreadsheet to calc platoon and list levels)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvpypn0mi75y7 ... .xlsx?dl=0

Post additions/corrections to the CoC Calcualtor
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4423

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Seret » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:16 am

I think you've got your modifiers for Green and Elite wrong. Green should be 2/3 the cost of regular, Elite should be 4/3. At the moment you've got Greens down as 1/3 and Elites as 1/2!

I wouldn't put in the support list values for individual squads either, since we still don't have any idea how they should be calculated.

Magpie
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:29 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Magpie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:00 pm

When you think about it though, the support list cost has to be the same as their platoon cost.

I'll check those multipliers

Edit : fixed now
CoC Calculator (Excel spreadsheet to calc platoon and list levels)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvpypn0mi75y7 ... .xlsx?dl=0

Post additions/corrections to the CoC Calcualtor
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4423

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Seret » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:02 pm

Magpie wrote:When you think about it though, the support list cost has to be the same as their platoon cost.
It's not, Rich has said before he gave a discount for troops counted in your core platoon compared to ones bought off the support list.

Either way, it's certainly not 3pts per step on the support lists. The infantry scale has 6pts per step, but we don't actually know if Rich calculated them this way (or if they were calculated at all). Take the example of a late war German infantry platoon, buying all the bits off the support list would add up to 19 support points. But the CoCulator puts the platoon at 85pts, which doesn't add up at either 3 or 6pts per step.

Bottom line: we don't have an exact way of working out the cost of infantry supports. The Coculator can do AFVs and towed guns, and it can spit out force ratings for infantry platoons, but it doesn't do the infantry supports. That's not a big problem, as most of them are the same for all nations, and the moves between list levels are coarse enough that you can guesstimate the rest.

Magpie
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:29 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Magpie » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:22 am

That's fairly strange though.

The premise seems to be that the base level platoons have a relative worth and the difference between those values allows you to access support list items to redress the imbalance.

So for example if you had 2 platoons that were otherwise equal but one had 2 sections and the other had 3, logically their Force Level should differ by the value of one section.

It would then naturally follow that the Support Level "cost" of the extra section should equate to the difference in Force Level, if the Support Levels cost more then the weaker force stays weak.

The sub-totals for the individual section components will stay in the spreadsheet and whomever can do whatever they choose with them.
I'll put in another "tweak" row to account for whatever rubberiness you guys want to put in there. Should further data come to light, I'll update the formulae.
CoC Calculator (Excel spreadsheet to calc platoon and list levels)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvpypn0mi75y7 ... .xlsx?dl=0

Post additions/corrections to the CoC Calcualtor
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4423

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Seret » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:45 am

Magpie wrote: It would then naturally follow that the Support Level "cost" of the extra section should equate to the difference in Force Level, if the Support Levels cost more then the weaker force stays weak.
Entirely logical, but alas, not actually the case.

Take for example a sniper. 3pts if in the core platoon, but List 3 if it's not. An SFMG? 10pts in your core platoon, but List 4. An infantry squad with 10 men, a JL and an MG? Somewhere around 20pts in the core platoon...but also List 4, the same as the 10pt SFMG.

I strongly suspect that the infantry support costs weren't actually calculated, but were plonked into spots that Rich felt were "about right" during playtesting and development of the game.

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Arlequín » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:11 am

It was never designed as a hard and fast 'points system', just a way of roughly balancing out two opposing forces. That you dice for additional support points, possibly creating imbalance, makes an exact value rendition pointless in any case; no pun intended. If a single vehicle appears in one slot on one list, but can be one slot up or down in another by error, is not actually that important all things considered.

Like it or not, there are no '500 point a side' games in CoC. It makes life difficult when compiling a list, but that's how it is. Obsessing over points and getting the optimum bang for your buck has never been a facet encouraged in TFL rules.

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Seret » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Completely agree. I like the way the steps between list levels are quite coarse, so that there's no messing about minmaxing and tweaking down to the tiniest sliver of a point.

Magpie
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:29 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Magpie » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:01 pm

Not suggesting that it should be a point system, just that it should in itself follow some form of logic. Random elements being introduced by dice etc is fine but the list levels need to have some sort of consistency.
CoC Calculator (Excel spreadsheet to calc platoon and list levels)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvpypn0mi75y7 ... .xlsx?dl=0

Post additions/corrections to the CoC Calcualtor
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4423

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: CoCulator calculator

Post by Arlequín » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:49 pm

I didn't mean to imply that you were.

Don't get me wrong, I do find the 'wooliness' frustrating sometimes, especially when I think there should be a difference reflected and the Coculator doesn't support that. This is invariably when I'm actually creating a list though. Whether my opponent in a game uses one or two support points more or less, figuratively or literally, is not really important to me personally.

Given that Rich created all the 'official' lists and took comments under advisement, did give a form of consistency and a continuity of whatever logic he chose to impart to them. Throwing that open to all in the form of the Coculator broke that and indeed everyone has and will introduce their own value judgements. So yes I agree, there should be a visibly logical and consistent framework underpinning it all; but there isn't and we have to live with that.

Post Reply