Trees and line of sight

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by Seret »

john de terre neuve wrote: I have to say that I am still waiting for a campaign with real bocage, I made several feet of it when the ruleset first came out but have yet to use it.
That's because contrary to what wargamers are often led to believe, not all of Normandy is bocage. Mostly the American sector in the west:
Image

I haven't bothered making any bocage-sized hedgerows. Making terrain specially for a small sector of a campaign that was only 3 months of the war anyway seems a bit niche. Maybe if I was going to do VBCW set in Cornwall...Cornish proto-An Gof separatist faction anyone?

sackatatties
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:50 am
Location: Dunfermline, Scotland

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by sackatatties »

I used to play that the individual trees on a map were insignificant and for decoration only. Now I take the chance to deploy a small shrubbery for most of the ones in the scenario map unless they're obviously decorative, so lining roads or driveways or in managed areas like orchards. Unmanaged trees are rarely on their own. These shrubberies provide very small areas of cover about the size of a JoP and block LoS. Best grab some photos and get a feel for the area.

As for 1st and 2nd story windows (in british terms), a tree has a lot more blocking effect from a 1st story window that from ground level so they blocks LoS. 2nd story windows can also be blocked depending on the trees - looks out of the window to my left at the huge Willow.....

Blasted trees obviously do not block LoS :)

Hills and contours in CoC tend to be gentle changes in level and I treat them as one story difference per contour.

Feel free to make it interesting as long as you state the effect before you start. Break out of the hex!

Works for me.

Archdukek
Posts: 4845
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Linlithgow, West Lothian, UK

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by Archdukek »

John,
Before you wish for a campaign in Bocage country you might just want to try using it in a one off game. It's an absolute nightmare!

John

User avatar
4thWelsh
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by 4thWelsh »

If a tree is not going to represent a tree, what's the point of it being on the table?
The average big trees are up to and beyond 100ft and shall we say around 60ft wide or more? You would have to be at some serious height to be able to fire over it down onto your enemy. Men have hidden behind trees, boulders, folds in the ground in every conflict. Why should our games start to disallow this kind of stuff. Line of sight to small targets should be discussed in any game. Agree on how big the tree models are representing. We're supposed to be trying to keep our men alive... give them a chance eh!

'My sniper is targetting your Sergeant hiding behind that tree. It's an easy shot because little does your Sergeant realise, there is no tree' Come on guys :roll:

User avatar
john de terre neuve
Posts: 1842
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:37 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by john de terre neuve »

John,
Before you wish for a campaign in Bocage country you might just want to try using it in a one off game. It's an absolute nightmare!

John
maybe just one game then!

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 875
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by MLB »

I think this comes down to three key things:

The designer's intent; the representation of that on a scenario map and an agreed understanding of what the symbols on that map represent.

All three could be dealt with by solving the last one. If there was a map legend with a short description of what each symbol or group of symbols was supposed to represent we could then translate the designer's intent onto the table. It's the intent that matters, because if you don't have the exact terrain pieces you can use something you do have to create the intended terrain.

For example if the farm is intended to be surrounded by tall trees and a high wall with limited line of sight, then I might recreate that intention with a single storey building if I lack the trees and walls. At least I know I've got the intention right.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7430
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Sorry 4th Welsh do not want top spend all my time worrying about whether a low hanging branch with an acorn on it blocks LOS or not I am firmly with MLB and Seret on this one
Define terrain before hand but if you want to shoot over trees then you need a laser to work out dead ground - much simpler to disallow it.
As no height, width or foliage (winter, Autumn deciduous) is specified for individual trees on Richs map I ignore them for LOS purposes.
Have we not had this discussion before ?
A few times?

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4074
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by Seret »

4thWelsh wrote:If a tree is not going to represent a tree, what's the point of it being on the table?
For a single tree, it's effect on the game is pretty negligible. Units of troops are usually big enough that they can't hide behind it, and you'd have to be pretty generous to grant a squad cover because of a single tree. Small teams of one or two guys, fair enough. If someone wants to have their AT crew get down behind a tree trunk I'd allow them light cover. But a rifle squad with one or two of it's guys behind the same tree? No deal.

If you've got fairly realistic-looking terrain you can use true line of sight, but be sensible about it. Most of the time the answer is pretty obvious I reckon.

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 875
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by MLB »

This comes back to the designer's intention - is the tree symbol on the map really meant to mark just one single tree, or is it one or more large trees? Who here counts the number of orchard trees on the map and places exactly that number on the table? And yet we seem to be certain that a single tree symbol is just a single tree, and therefore decorative not functional. If with Orchards we set them up 'for effect', then why not for trees? The real discussion is what is the 'effect' and how does it impact the game. It begs the question why put the trees on the map, surely we can all 'decorate' our tables with non-functional items to our hearts content?

It just needs a simple definition - this symbol represents one or more large trees and they function like this. It can't be too hard, after all CoC really only has two core types of trees - large untended trees, and orchard trees.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
john de terre neuve
Posts: 1842
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:37 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Trees and line of sight

Post by john de terre neuve »

I think this is really getting overly complicated. It is never going to be possible to exactly duplicate a designer's map.

I am sitting on the second level (1st floor) of my house and looking through the window. There are a lot of deciduous trees most of them actually go to the third level (our house is a 4 story). Some them I look through and have excellent LOS to someone walking down the street despite them having all their leaves in full. Each tree is going to be different , 2 weeks ago there were just buds.

It is impossible to model single trees, there are too many factors. I know you are asking for a general rule for interpretation of single trees on scenario maps. I believe it is not going to happen, just like no one has defined whether orange roofs mean 2 stories or one.

I would recommend as others have, is to put down the terrain you have and either define it's elements in respect to it's LOS and cover or use wysiwyg.

Then enjoy the game!

John

Post Reply