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Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:01 am
by remgain
Hi,

in the last game happened the following.
A squad is targeted in the open (OUCH!).
In the following phase it manage to take cover behind a hedge nearby.
BUT the Junior Leader start a little far away, and the die roll isn't high enough to allow him to cross the hedge so he stays in open ground.
So: the men are behind the edge, the JL not, but he's in 4" so attached to his squad.

Now, to the question.
Can the leader be targeted because is the easiest target to hit (page 33, 8.3.1)?
Or not because he's attached to the squad (page 39, 9.1.1)?

Your opinion, please!!

Thank you!
Marco

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:20 am
by Peter
My opinion? Yes.

Peter

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:40 am
by Archdukek
I'd say that the rule on page 39 takes precedence since that is specifically about targeting Leaders which is what you are trying to do here. 8.3.1 is dealing with Teams in different cover not targeting Leaders.

However in this rare event I'd probably agree to splitting the hits between the Leader and Teams in the squad allowing some of the hits to be assessed against a target in the open.

John

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:14 am
by remgain
Peter,

I think so.
Also because was my opponent's leader!! :D
Seriuosly, my opinion is that, in the middle of the firefight, you don't fire because it's a leader, actually you don't know that he's a leader. He's only a poor chap alone in open.

Of course the player has two choices:
1) target the leader in the open, without any hit on the squad, or
2) target the squad in light cover, and, maybe, hit the leader.

Thank you!
Marco

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:52 pm
by Chaingun
Sorry to re-dig this thread up, but we had a situation in our last game that we were unsure about.

A British section was down to just the rifle team and a JL who was within 4” of the rifle team. The British rifle team were located on the right hand side of a road behind the wall and the JL was in the middle of the road within 4” of his rifle team. A German section could see the JL, but were unable to see the British rifle team who the JL was attached to.

1) Could the Germans target the British as a whole just because the JL makes them as a valid target as he is attached to the rifle team?
2) or, is the British JL the only valid target and all hits are against him?
3) or, does any hits get evenly distributed between the British rifle team and the JL?
4) or, as the rifle team could not be targeted, does this also include the JL?

I’ve read the sections in the rulebook and faq several times and it would seem it could be read either way on what to do, so I’m hoping you guys who have more experience with the game can help πŸ˜πŸ‘

Thanks

Lee

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 pm
by rim66
I'd say that, if only the JL could be seen and hit, then he can be targeted and all hits are on him. This assumes the section are hiding behind the wall and therefore not eligible as a target rather than using the wall as a firing position.

Kind regards,

Richard aka Monty Lardo

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:33 pm
by siggian
While I can see a strong argument for allowing the targeting of the JL, I'd like to present its counter.

By custom, most players have a leader dice for a hit even if he cannot be seen or even targeted by the enemy on the thinking that the JL figure represents the centre of his general location and that he is moving about, peering at what is going on and rallying the section. This activity would make him an eligible target. It also prevents the cheesy play of hiding the JL to prevent him from getting hit. I've played CoC this way for so long, I'm not sure its actually written that way in the rules.

By logical extension, if the JL is attached to the section and all of it is in cover, I'd allow him to count as being in the same cover. My rationale is that he would be moving about with the figures and would therefore be in cover as well. I'd even allow the player enough extra movement on the JLs part to get into the cover so that the situation is crystal clear.

Now if someone tries any cheese on that (for example, by having the JL stroll along in the open so that he can be the link between the two teams in separate bits of cover), I'd draw the line at that. This is where my allowing the extra movement makes sense. If the player doesn't take advantage of my generosity, then the JL is fair game.

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:21 pm
by Truscott Trotter
Tis a good question.

The rules are clear that units within 4" still cannot share hits if they are out if LOS.

The rules are also explicit that a leader within 4" of a unit cannot be targeted individually.

To me logically the first point overrides the latter, and I agree with Monty.

I do take siggians point but I suspect that may open up more cans of worms. If the wall was simply cover and the rifle team was in LOS then I think siggians argument has merit as rhe rifleteam would be the main target and that would give the leader hard cover too by RAW..

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:14 am
by Chaingun
Thank you all for replying to my questions, I spent a lot of gaming time the other night trying to find the answer in both the rulebook and faq. It would seem that by your replies that as I found the rules contradict itself in the rare occasion.

I do take all your points on board and I can see Merrit in all of them, so I think I may use this as a get around to the problem.

The JL can not be targeted in the enemies phase it is able to do so, as this would represent the JL diving for cover in the ditches in the side of the road, or commanding his team etc as rules as written.

The next available phase for the player controlling the JL and his team, they must try and spend their command dice making sure he moves his ass to be in the same cover as his team.

Failing for what ever reason to do this and the JL is fair game, if players abuse this and continue to stick their leaders out in this way, then again it’s fair game and they can be targeted. I think this will ensure players keep to the spirit the rules was written in and make sure players command their sections and teams accordingly.

Thanks again

Lee πŸ‘πŸ˜

Re: Question - The Lone Leader

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:28 pm
by siggian
I think TT, Monty, and myself (my post omitted any mention visibility because I was assuming that the section was visible (because I overlooked the mention that the Germans could not see the section)) are all saying the same thing essentially:

If the rifle section is visible and in cover AND the leader is within 4" of the section, he cannot be targeted (in effect, giving him the benefit of cover). If the rifle section is not visible OR the leader is not within 4" of the section, he is fair game as a target.

Basically, the rule for targeting the leader should take priority over the rule about targeting individual figures in different levels of cover. This is really what this discussion is about. (My general rule for good gaming is to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt when rules clash.)