Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

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Seret
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by Seret »

Trailape wrote: With all due respect,..
that's not correct :)
Fighting in a built up area in 1944 or fighting in a BUA in 2014, the principles are still the same.
Fighting in close terrain in 1941 or close terrain in 2013,.... The principle are the same.
This. A certain amount of IMT is the same no matter the context.

sid
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by sid »

You cannot assume any infantry can work with armour the two units involved must rehearse together. A good example of this would be 4th Welch at Esquay (Op Clement) on 23rd July 1944 where of the two companies involved with Crocodiles. One of the companies had rehearsed with 141 RAC the day before and had a completely successful attack, the other company had not turned up for the rehearsals and during the live attack had some of their own men burnt by the Churchill crocodiles. It is covered in the post operational report by the CO of 4th Welch. He also comments that arty and the crocs were instrumental in the British attacks. Interestingly enough he also rated Grrman morale as either nil or 100% they either ran immediately or fought to the end.

Anyone interested just google war diaries of 4th Welch.

Personally as an old infantryman I was always nervous of working with armour in case they started to jockey around and run into/over us. The tankies used to put a can of coke in the rear telephone box as a reward for the brave soul who got that close. If you are talking IFV like warrior it is different as the drivers are from your own unit and you trust them, but accidents still happened.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by Truscott Trotter »

This is my favourite bit
5‐6 Explodes, crew dead. 1D6 hits on any
infantry within 4”. 2D6 hits on any
passengers

Of course you can train your guys to march at 4.1" from the rear of the tank every turn too :D
Some first hand accounts at how effective walking behind tanks actually was
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=N- ... ks&f=false
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Y2 ... ks&f=false

this one matched many other accounts I have read
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Td ... ks&f=false
so did this
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TC ... ks&f=false
Last edited by Truscott Trotter on Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

batesmotel34
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by batesmotel34 »

Barring having special scenario rules for whether your infantry has trained to work with any attached AFV, I think it's something that you have to leave to the player's ability to coordinate them rather than to the rules themselves. The differing number of command dice based on the quality of the troops will certainly make it harder to coordinate green troops moving simultaneously with an AFV than it is for elite, with regulars in the the middle. I would also consider it reasonable to consider infantry moving behind an AFV as having some cover, probably soft, rather than obsessing too much about exact lines of site.

Chris

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pedivere
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by pedivere »

Trailape wrote:
pedivere wrote:
Trailape wrote: Fighting in a built up area in 1944 or fighting in a BUA in 2014, the principles are still the same.
Fighting in close terrain in 1941 or close terrain in 2013,.... The principle are the same.
true
my point is - we were discussing general rules for CoC, not special rules or approaches for built-up areas

plus
the difference I was referring to is the differing amount of heavy weapons, built-up areas or not.

No heavy artillery and AT guns against armour in the middle-east, just mortars and RPG and the occasional mine.

I can imagine you could tell a lot of stories about how armour is used to support smoking out insurgents, and this is all very interesting for "Fighting Season" or specialized CoC in the Warsaw uprising, Stalingrad or Monte Cassino, I am sure.
But I am also certain you agree that this is different for the general, mobile across country approach of CoC, where the armoured forces need boots on the ground to take out AT strongpoints.
I guess we all agree that this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qm4jgqDxE
is not the reality of WW2, or gaming CoC ;)

if you require coordination rules for close armoured infantry support, maybe you can find something in the soviet tank riders list or just simply cook up your own approach - that is what CoC encourages and you've got a lot of advice for this approach in this thread :D

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Seret
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by Seret »

Truscott Trotter wrote:This is my favourite bit
5‐6 Explodes, crew dead. 1D6 hits on any
infantry within 4”. 2D6 hits on any
passengers

Of course you can train your guys to march at 4.1" from the rear of the tank every turn too :D
The risk of exploding tanks is a real thing. For example, the German tactical manuals for infantry operating with assault guns stressed that it was important not to bunch around the gun. The reason they made this point is of course that huddling behind the big steel beast is exactly what the troops tended to do in action. When the lead is flying hard cover is attractive.

There are plenty of cases where troops are trained to stick close to a tank and use it as cover though. Using an AFV to rescue a man wounded in the open, for instance. It's also done in urban combat, hence why urban kits for tanks tend to include tank telephones.

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pedivere
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by pedivere »

Seret wrote:
There are plenty of cases where troops are trained to stick close to a tank and use it as cover though. Using an AFV to rescue a man wounded in the open, for instance. It's also done in urban combat, hence why urban kits for tanks tend to include tank telephones.
like this right? :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xq9LeQYPRI

aphillathehun
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by aphillathehun »

Nice review on the blog! As a point of data there, you cannot activate a team and put it on overwatch on a "1." Only leaders can put a team on overwatch, so you could use the "1" to move or fire the team, but not put it on overwatch.

Yes, using two activation dice simultaneously will allow you to move a squad or team and a vehicle together.

Finally, I'm sure lots of guys walk behind tanks for cover. But it reminds me of an episode in an Infantryman in Stalingrad where a new officer arrives and orders his men to go with him behind the StuG. The veteran officer tells him that if he does that he'll get shot. But the new officer has rank and does what he wants. And, of course, he gets shot. He got what he deserved I guess, but he lost a couple of his men who he took with him too.

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Trailape
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by Trailape »

Like I said earlier Im not interested in the tactical soundless of infantry following armour (the situation dictates). I just wanted to see how it COULD be done within the rules.
The answer is right there in Chapter 4.
So that's that. :)
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER

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Trailape
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Re: Coordination AFV and Infantry movement

Post by Trailape »

Truscott Trotter wrote:This is my favourite bit
5‐6 Explodes, crew dead. 1D6 hits on any
infantry within 4”. 2D6 hits on any
passengers

Of course you can train your guys to march at 4.1" from the rear of the tank every turn too :D
Some first hand accounts at how effective walking behind tanks actually was
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=N- ... ks&f=false
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Y2 ... ks&f=false

this one matched many other accounts I have read
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Td ... ks&f=false
so did this
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TC ... ks&f=false
Hi
Excellent resource
But again Ill stress I'm talking about a section working closely with a single tank at relatively close quarters to the enemy
NOT
A battalion size assault combining Infantry Armour and Artillery.
I'm thinking of a situation where a Corporal has decided his best option (for whatever reason far far too numerous to list here) has decided to advance behind that single tank in a certain direction.
;)
I AM MY BROTHER'S KEEPER

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