US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

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PaulJ
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US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by PaulJ »

I have carefully phrased the title of this thread because usually US 60mm mortar units are referred to and treated as teams. However in the armoured infantry list they are referred to as a squad. This is confusing especially for deployment etc. they have no JL attached to them. I suspect historically they were a squad, perhaps it would be more consistent to treat them as a team for CoC purposes. Any thoughts?

Archdukek
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by Archdukek »

Paul,
I think it is just a reflection of the historic terminology used by the U.S. in describing the composition of an Armoured rifle platoon which generally refer to a "mortar Squad" and a "machine gun squad", the latter having two .30 cal MGs. (See bayonet strength website).

I would treat it as a Team when playing COC, as long as you are consistent it won't matter.
John

PaulJ
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by PaulJ »

That was my thought as well, I think it always has to be treated as a team, especially since it has no leader attached and therefore can only be commanded by the SLs. What makes it stranger is that on the same list you have squads listed which only consist of a team of riflemen and their JL.

Archdukek
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by Archdukek »

Paul,
It's the historic terminology again, but worth bearing in mind that with the US infantry it was common practice to spin off a scout team from that team of riflemen and also you have the option of creating a bazooka team, so in practice that single team Squad can fairly easily become a 3 team squad.
John

hedgehobbit
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by hedgehobbit »

I've said before that I don't agree with the US armored infantry list in the rulebook.

Here's the mortar squad's composition according to US FM 17-71

1 Sergeant, squad leader
1 Gunner No. 1
1 Gunner No. 2
2 Ammunition handlers
2 Riflemen (who can form the bazooka team if needed)
1 Driver

The Gunner No. 2 and the 2 riflemen can also dismount with the .30 cal MG.

I wrote up this squad as follows:

MORTAR SQUAD
---------------
Sergeant, Junior Leader armed with M1 rifle
---------------
MORTAR TEAM
60mm mortar with 4 crew
One driver with SMG
Two riflemen with M1 rifles

Option: Two riflemen may be removed from the squad to form a Bazooka Team
Option: If the bazooka team is not formed, two riflemen and one mortar crewman may be removed from the squad to form a M1917 MMG Team, using the vehicular machine gun.
----------------

Read the Field Manual here (Mortar stuff starts on page 25):
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref ... M17-71.pdf

hedgehobbit
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by hedgehobbit »

The confusion comes about because of the difference in how the mortars were organized between the armored and regular infantry. In a rifle company, 60mm mortars were organized into a Mortar Section composed of a Sergeant (JL) and three mortar squads of 5 men each (one of which is a Corporal). Hence CoC's use of 60mm mortars in teams with 5 man crews (I'd make it three crew and two ammunition bearers but that's another debate).

The armored mortar squad is the same 5 man crew plus two riflemen and a driver. However, because in this formation, the squad leader is a Sergeant instead of a Corporal, he's promoted (in game) to a JL which make it a JL+a team with 4 crew instead of just one team with 5 crew.

A similar situation occurs in the armored platoon's MG squad where one of the MG teams is led by a Corporal and the other by the Sergeant (who is the JL). So, this squad in CoC should have one MG team with one fewer crewman than the other.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by Truscott Trotter »

As it stands it is a section of 1 team with no JL (deploy on a 2) - and until Rich gets to rewrite the Main rule arsenals - (which looks like being quite awhile as he is gojng in date order :() that's how we are playing it.

After all the US get a second Sl so he can command the 60mm mortars and the 30 cals as a nice fire-base.

PaulJ
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by PaulJ »

Truscott's point is the main problem in terms of game play, presumably as it is written you could deploy on a 1 or a 2? Once they are on board what should you activate them on? Most of the time they will be activated by the SL but otherwise?

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Seret
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by Seret »

PaulJ wrote:Truscott's point is the main problem in terms of game play, presumably as it is written you could deploy on a 1 or a 2?
Just a 1 I'd say. Same as any other single team without a leader.

Once they are on board what should you activate them on? Most of the time they will be activated by the SL but otherwise?
Same again, a 1.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: US armoured infantry integral mortar unit.

Post by Truscott Trotter »

A 1 I assume?

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