Suggestions for US Marine special rules

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DougM
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by DougM » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:39 pm

Interesting stuff. I know this might be heresy in some quarters, but were marine troops really that much more effective than the average grunt? (the aggressive/stubborn thing is quite powerful).

I am also wary about increasing command radius especially for SL. Being able to activate multiple squads/teams etc on a single die roll of 4 is very powerful..

And finally, if the Platoon sergeant is always allocated as a fire team leader, should he be counted as a SL? I would have thought that this would mean his attention would be on his own team.
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Levi the Ox
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Levi the Ox » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:58 pm

DougM wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:39 pm
I know this might be heresy in some quarters, but were marine troops really that much more effective than the average grunt? (the aggressive/stubborn thing is quite powerful).
I wore the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor for a while and it isn't heresy to me. Stubborn is probably appropriate to reflect the esprit de corps of the troops, and also reflects the brutal nature of the war in the Pacific. From a game design perspective, I would hesitate to rate any force (even the Japanese) as "Aggressive" across the board, but allow them to gain the trait in scenarios or through spending additional command initiatives with a leader when entering close-combat (like the other national special rules).

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DougM
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by DougM » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:29 pm

I suspect that given how quickly word spread about Japanese treatment of prisoners, that stubborn would be widespread.
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Truscott Trotter » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:07 pm

If you want to read some first hand accounts of marines in action and their feedback there is a US pub called something like Lessons from Guadalcanal .

It is written from POV of the interviews with NCO's and Junior Officers rather than Senior officers or official historians.

They do not turn out to be supermen any more than the Japanese 😀

Levi the Ox
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Levi the Ox » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:58 pm

DougM wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:29 pm
I suspect that given how quickly word spread about Japanese treatment of prisoners, that stubborn would be widespread.
Yeah, I'd rate most units (Allied and Japanese) in the island campaigns as Stubborn from 1942 on, because neither retreat nor surrender was really an option. Don't know enough about the CBI theater to comment on that.

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DougM
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by DougM » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:22 pm

Thanks for the input guys. I have been thinking about the island campaigns as potential scenarios. I will be very interested to see what the 'official' rules eventually say.
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Capt Fortier
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Capt Fortier » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:24 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:07 pm
If you want to read some first hand accounts of marines in action ...
The website of the National WWII Museum in New Orleans has some useful digital sources, including for Guadalcanal.
Capt Fortier

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Len Tracey
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Len Tracey » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:18 am

G'day all,
DougM, a quick clarification: its the BAR Squad SGT that is the first team leader in the BAR Squad, not the Platoon SGT.
From what I have red, the BAR Squad was the platoon's base of fire and deployed as a squad to provide fire support for the manoeuvre of the three Rifle Squads. The platoon was designed to fire and move by squads and there appears to have been very little use of individual fire teams.
Agree with observation about Aggressive/Stubborn. It is potentially powerful but was one way to reflect US Marine ethos and assault oriented doctrine. I've read a number of criticisms from US Army sources in WW2 and Korea that referred to a Marine propensity for frontal assaults and brute force tactics. However, this may be a result of attacking small land masses where clever manoeuvre and flanking opportunities are pretty limited, and retreat is not an option.
More than happy to consider alternative methods of reflecting USMC doctrine.
Cheers.

Will3T
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Will3T » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:00 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:07 pm
If you want to read some first hand accounts of marines in action and their feedback there is a US pub called something like Lessons from Guadalcanal .

It is written from POV of the interviews with NCO's and Junior Officers rather than Senior officers or official historians.

They do not turn out to be supermen any more than the Japanese 😀
Fighting on Guadalcanal is what you are thinking of, and it is a very informative read! I agree that it makes out neither the Japanese nor the American as a superman, but it definitely instills that the Marines came out of Guadalcanal knowing they could beat the enemy. The document can be found online quite easily and is worth a look.

My thoughts on it in regards to CoC was the emphasis on scouting in a jungle environment, firepower at the squad & platoon level, and the ability of leaders to affect the battle. The first point is naturally present in the existing US National Characteristic. The second point is reflected in the platoon layout and Support Options to add BARs and other weapons. My goal is to hopefully make something that demonstrates the third!

Levi the Ox
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Re: Suggestions for US Marine special rules

Post by Levi the Ox » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:03 pm

Will3T wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:00 pm
My thoughts on it in regards to CoC was the emphasis on scouting in a jungle environment, firepower at the squad & platoon level, and the ability of leaders to affect the battle. The first point is naturally present in the existing US National Characteristic. The second point is reflected in the platoon layout and Support Options to add BARs and other weapons. My goal is to hopefully make something that demonstrates the third!
Do you plan on keeping the Marching Fire ability, or removing it? The combination of mobility and firepower it offers units activated by leaders is withering!

Some of the late-war lists give the Marine Junior Leaders 3 initiatives to handle their 3 teams. You could use that rule earlier in the war, although I suspect it would be very powerful (having not played it myself). That being said, the focus of the game system is already the emphasis on leadership in action, would you rate US Marines higher in that regard than the German practice of Auftragstaktik that also emphasized lower-level initiative?
American and British platoons are the only nations who regularly have two full senior leaders in their platoons, with many other forces often rating the platoon sergeant as an Inferior Junior Leader or simply being stretched too thin to have one.

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